TT through a theater receiver/amp.. w/ phono inputs

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by landonspop, Jan 21, 2016.

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  1. Gretsch6136

    Gretsch6136 Forum Resident

    I run a high end valve amp for serious music listening. I also recently purchased a very nice Yamaha Aventage RX-a1040 HT receiver.

    Since getting the receiver I've run my external phono stage into the receiver via one of its Aux inputs and the sound is great. The amplification in it is very clean and clear, lots of air and detail.

    So I'd recommend giving the phono input in your Pioneer a run. If that doesn't live up to expectations, find yourself a good external phono stage and you should be happy.
     
  2. landonspop

    landonspop New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Antonio

    I am still using the Denon 3808. I do notice that I have to turn the volume up higher than I do with cd's or tv, but I have heard cd's are recorded louder.

    I have now been offered the Denon 6200 and the Yamaha Aventage 3050 for the same ball park price on the sales price of the Pioneer. I am leaning towards the Yamaha now. Help I got here and the price of the Cert Rega made it an easy choice.

    I am of the opinion most A/V rec's sound close to the same in theatre sound formats. The diff's being the calibration systems and the bells and whistles of each.

    I have heard Marantz and Yamaha are great for music.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  3. Gretsch6136

    Gretsch6136 Forum Resident

    Yes the Yamaha line sounds killer for music and movies. It exceeded my expectations. All sources played through it sound great. I haven't tried the internal phono stage though, just went ahead and plugged in my external one from the get go.

    I moved from an old Denon HT receiver to the Yamaha and the upgrade was very obvious in every respect. Can't recommend it highly enough. Plus there is a 4 year warranty on the Aventage receivers.
     
  4. LeeDempsey

    LeeDempsey Forum Resident

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I'm also using a Denon 3808ci, 75% of the time in two-channel mode, with Pure Direct on. I quickly outgrew the onboard phono stage, moving first to a Cambridge Audio 640p, and then a SoundSmith MMP3. I used the input source level matching function on the Denon to get all of my sources (phono, CD, cassette, reel-to-reel, etc.) at a consistent output level, so a volume setting of -15dB is consistent from source to source.
     
  5. landonspop

    landonspop New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Antonio
    Can you PM me how to do this. I may be trying a phono pre soon, but have to wait for funds again.
     
  6. Gavinyl

    Gavinyl Remembering Member

    Buy more nice, used vinyl mate !
     
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  7. landonspop

    landonspop New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Antonio
    This has crossed my mind. I would need a good budget Vac pre amp though.
     
  8. Licorice pizza

    Licorice pizza Livin’ On The Fault Line

    Exactly! It's like "Certified Organic" or "Made in the USA"(That can mean Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, etc...).
     
  9. keiron99

    keiron99 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockport, UK
    I am sure I alone in my views here, but I share the opinion of Alan Shaw, founder of Harberth speakers, that pretty much all half decent amps sound the same. :hide:

    That’s my experience over the decades, and it goes for phono stages too. (Calm down, calm down, I can sense the outrage!)

    Don’t get me wrong, I love box-swapping, just for the fun of it. Just a few months ago, I swapped a complicated pre/pro/phono/3 x power amp configuration for a one box AV receiver, the Pioneer SC LX83. Cost £2000 in its day, I got it for £300. It has a built in phono stage, which appealed to me. I see Colin M, above, has one from the same range, but my experience is very different from his.

    With my Technics SL1210 / Jelco 750 arm / AT 150MLX cartridge and Monitor Audio GX100 speakers, I cannot distinguish the Pioneer from the previous six box arrangement I had. Which, incidentally, sounded exactly the same as the set up I had before that…

    Regarding the phono stage, it’s nothing more than a tone control. So if it is consistent with the RIAA equalisation curve, it should sound the same as any other RIAA phono stage. The only reason one would sound different from another – and of course, some do – is because the designer has deliberately (or inadvertently) boosted or reduced a particular frequency. Luck me, I can simulate this using the tone/EQ facilities on my Pioneer.

    But that’s just my experience. Like if you dare :D
     
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  10. Raider4life

    Raider4life Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wenatchee, WA
    I have a Pioneer Elite SC-05 A/V receiver with a built in phono input. When I plugged my Music Hall 7.1 turntable directly into it the sound was just awful. I couldn't believe that I paid so much for a A/V Receiver and the phono input was such a poor quality. I did a little research and added a Creek Audio OBH-15 Phono Pre and have been a very happy camper ever since.
     
  11. JakeMcD

    JakeMcD Forum Resident

    Location:
    So Central FL
    Just. Can't. Not. Reply. :D

    You are definitely not alone in that view, Alan is wrong right there with you! I've read much of his writings - brilliant man, learned a lot, lovely products. I'm no mental match, not being good at math and physics and all, but I do have some kick ass ears. Big ones. In analysis of his oft quoted view, one easily sees how his opinion is unassailable. That being: what qualifies as a well designed (you say half decent) amplifier? If it sounds different, would he not be able to say that it is not well designed, thus leaving his statement logically sound?

    I have run several different amps through my LS50s, they all sound fine but also sound distinctly different. Each of their designers would vehemently defend their designs and be reasonably right in doing so.

    Alan has an enviable business. His opinion that well designed amplifiers sound the same is simply a statement that is catalyst for divergent opinions stated vehemently on discussion forums. Guilty as charged!
     
  12. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    If the design goal is limited to amplify an electrical signal I would think that all competently designed amplifiers should sound the same, right? Not add any color to the signal, just amplify it. That should be the pure design goal in any amplifier (including the pre-amp in a phono stage, which should add the RIAA EQ curve accurately). Assuming most good amps out there are competently designed, then theoretically Alan's statement should be true.

    In reality I think amps do sound different, but the differences don't really matter to me. Others would feel differently.
     
  13. jtw

    jtw Forum Resident

    OK. What makes a good phono stage good? What do the good ones do better than the bad ones? Are there specs?

    Some speakers don't even attempt to have a flat response. They may have boosted bass and/or treble, which may appeal to many. So wouldn't a phono stage that boosts bass and/or treble beyond the RIAA curve appeal to the same crowd?
     
  14. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    One thing that a good phono stage will do is allow for different loading from the cartridge. A quick google search brought this: Cartridge loading explained - Vinyl Engine » . I think a search here on cartridge loading will yield lots of results also.

    There are so many variables in vinyl playback that changing any number of things can make all kinds of difference in the sound. That's what lots of people find fun about it; there are so many tweaks that can be done.

    As for your statement on speakers - yes. Yes. And some people prefer perfect accuracy, lots of great studio monitors from Genelec and others which can be used as home hi-fi speakers very effectively, and lots of people love that. Different strokes for different folks.
     
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  15. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Basically what Phil said - good phono stages in the $300-$1000 range, the only ones I have any experience with, offer adjustability. I had a Vincent PHO-8, a very good budget phono stage with outboard power supply, and compared it to my Phonomena I. Phonomona 1 retailed for around $700 I think, the PHO-8 is $499 but pretty much always on sale at $299. The PHO-8 is not adjustable and sounded very smooth, very rounded off. The Phonomena is exciting, more aggressive, and fully adjustable. I sent the PHO-8 back. Eventually I'll figure out what $2k phono stages sound like in comparison but for now, my focus is getting more vinyl. The hardware I have is just fine for what I want.
     
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  16. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Another thing a good phono stage will have is the ability to handle either Moving Magnet or Moving Coil cartridges. I recall my Sherwood Newcastle AV-P9080 had that switch on the phono input, MM or MC. From what I understand Moving Coil cartridges have much lower output than Moving Magnet and require extra boost.
     
  17. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    They do need a bigger boost but on many models that switch only changes how much gain is applied. Tailoring a phono preamp to a MC cart is a little more involved than that though. MM carts *generally* sound best with about 47k ohms of loading, MC carts can hit their sweet spot at anywhere from 20-1000 ohms and possibly even over or under those extremes. For instance, my Dyna 20x2L MC doesn't sound nearly as good at 150 ohms loading vs 100 ohms. Having a phono pre with such flexibility is critical, IMO. Just having a switch might not achieve the best sound.
     
  18. jtw

    jtw Forum Resident

    OK. But is this difference in sound something room correction software can't compensate? I think that's what kelron99 was saying. So, if you're not a purist, and every time you make a change to your system, you re-run Audyssey XT32, in the end, will a different phono stage make a difference?
     
  19. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Room correction wouldn't fix a cart-phono preamp mismatch, no. I suppose maybe you could approach it with EQ but at that point, why bother?
     
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  20. jtw

    jtw Forum Resident

    Could you explain a little more?

    Some non-purists, like me, use room correction to compensate for the fact that we don't have dedicated listening rooms (and have limited budgets). Audyssey XT32 makes a big improvement to the sound in our living room to my ears. So, I'll run it after every change. If I replace one phone stage with a mismatched phono stage which causes a high frequency roll off, I know that I'll hear it before rerunning Audyssey. But after running Audyssey, will I really hear a difference between the original and new phono stage?
     
  21. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Room correction, in my experience, works to correct phase anomalies and tries to minimize room modes. Those are physical aspects of the room you have. Like my upstairs, I use ARC to correct for an open concept floorplan with speakers in less than desirable locations, and a subwoofer that is a hulking mass and has to sit behind and to the left of the listening position. Without Room EQ, the sound is a jumbled mess with bass coming from behind you as much as it does in front, and an image that tends to "tilt" horizontally based on how the speakers are placed. After room correction, the front image is as good as it can get given the equipment producing it - consistent height and width (I don't get much if any depth of stage upstairs) and the bass response is the big one, it all sounds like it's in front of you.

    Cart and Phono Pre mismatches are different from room modes and phasing issues - when I load my current cart with a different value on my phono pre than what I've decided is optimum, bass gets flabby or midrange feels too forward or the highs get crushed, or the soundstage collapses. I don't know how room correction fixes that since you're fighting electrical issues at that point, not physical ones. Again, some room correction can do EQ but if you lose bass control, I don't see how EQ could correct that. Change it, maybe, but not fix it.

    Just my opinion!
     
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  22. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident

    OP: If you can afford the LaFerrari pictured in your avatar, you can certainly afford a dedicated system for playing LP's!
     
  23. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Room correction doesn't do anything with the source signal. It's completely within the receiver. It's part of the pre-amp stage of the receiver.

    Like this:

    Source device ---> Preamp (adds room correction) ---> Amp ---->Speakers

    Phono stage is part of the "source device" step, not the preamp step. The receiver has no idea what the phono preamp is - it just adds room correction which would correct a neutral signal (Source device line level output, FM signal, or digital stream from PCM/DD/DTS). The room correction will be the same no matter what phono preamp is attached, the room correction will be the same for all input sources.

    I suppose if you could get a record to generate the test tones that room correction needs, and program a very sophisticated room correction algorithm to accept an external signal for the test tones, that it's physically possible to make room correction for vinyl playback systems, but I don't think that kind of thing would ever exist.
     
  24. landonspop

    landonspop New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Antonio
    If that is you in your avatar, you can have a ride anytime!!
     
  25. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident

    HA! No, not me. Just some internet babe that I'll never get to meet!
     
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