Tube amp request for suggestions

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by IanL, Apr 19, 2004.

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  1. IanL

    IanL Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Help! I really need to simplify my life, musically speaking. Surround sound, biamping, etc. all seemed fun at one time. In fact surround sound is still cool sometimes. But since I only really listen to Headhunters and Dark Side of the Moon in surround regularly, and maybe the Sopranos on Sunday nights, is it really worth it to have all that equipment, speakers, cables, wires running all over the room, and settling for the sound of a 5.1 channel preamp that I can afford?

    I find that these days I mostly listen to vinyl. And I mostly buy vinyl. Sometimes an SACD or used gold disc. I've been thinking I should re-prioritize my gear in order to get the most out of what I listen to. I watch movies, but don't really care if they are in surround. I listen to tons more music than I watch DVDs. I have a Sony 999ES SACD/DVD/CD player that does pretty much all I need it to do. I have a Rega P3/Elys cartridge with an external Creek phono preamp that sound pretty good to me in my current system. And I have, among my speakers, a pair of B&W 604s3 that I like a great deal.

    So, I guess what I am interested in learning more about and possibly buying is an integrated tube amp, possibly with a built-in phono stage. I don't listen to the radio, and I just need something to plug my SACD player (stereo) and turntable into. That is it. It sounds so simple, yet I have stuff all over my living room, amps, speakers, wires, etc. But it seems like I could just get an integrated tube amp, keep my turntable and SACD player, and be done. That would be so simple. Get some Grover interconnects and speaker wire (which I could actually afford for a stereo setup, as opposed to multichannel) and I would get that nice tube sound for all my stereo sound.

    I don't have a ton of money, but am willing to save for/finance the right piece. Selling my current amps and a set of bookshelf speakers would help as well. I am definitely open to a used piece if this will open the door to equipment I could otherwise not afford. I just need something that can push my B&W speakers and will sound great. I guess I should say there is a limit of around $2000. But I don't need the most expensive amp, just one that I will enjoy a great deal. So if you know of any less expensive amps (Jolida? I have heard of them, but don't know too much) or vintage amps that will not be too much upkeep or restoration, I would love to hear about those too. Also I see a lot of Conrad Johnson pieces on Audiogon pretty often, but don't know if they might be what I am looking for. Thanks for any ideas any of you tubeheads have. :D
     
  2. Jeffrey

    Jeffrey Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    South Texas
    Hi Ian,

    Me thinks your budget would be best utilized on used gear. Ya may wanna give some thought to whether ya wanna go integrated or seperates. The modern vs. vintage tradeoff is also worthy of a lot of thought and strongly depends upon your top priorities for the sound. What kinda tunes do ya listen to mostly and what kinda sound do ya prefer?

    Happy huntin',
    Jeffrey
     
  3. IanL

    IanL Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Thanks for the response Jeffrey.

    I listen to primarily '50s-'60s Jazz and '60s and later Rock and Roll. Beatles, Stones, Floyd, Dylan, the usual suspects. A few current bands like Radiohead, Wilco, which I try to find on vinyl.

    I like the idea of going integrated to keep things simple, but if the right argument can be made for separates and I can afford it, I will certainly listen.

    I guess the difference, soundwise, of modern vs. vintage is something I don't know too much about. What are the tradeoffs of each?

    As far as sound I prefer, I don't like a bright sound at all. I used to have Klipsch speakers and found their sound to be too bright for my tastes using solid state equipment. I like warm sound, nice bass definition (if this is compatible with tubes), and nice imaging on stereo material. I also love that lush sound of acoustic instruments in classic jazz. But the balance of that with some slam in the bass is important to me.
     
  4. Jeffrey

    Jeffrey Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    South Texas
    Hi Ian,

    You're most welcome!

    In many ways, vintage gear may matchup well w/ your budget and musical tastes. The one issue will be that the low's may not be as tight as you desire. You prolly will be satisified w/ the bass slam but not the definition. My musical tastes are similar to your's and i love 50's & 60's jazz on my McIntosh 240/C-20 combo. I believe that music of the same time period as my gear sounds best....... it's certainly a logical argument. :)

    If ya want faster tube gear w/ more refined bass, ya may wanna look at modern equipment.

    Either way, your desires matchup well w/ tubes.

    Go tubular,
    Jeffrey :)
     
  5. IanL

    IanL Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Jeffrey, I've heard great things about the Mac pieces you own. I was just checking eBay/Audiogon and apparently these are the favorites of everybody else too. Because they seem to cost more than any of their other models. Have you ever heard a 250? I saw a couple of those for quite a bit less and I think they were integrated. Of course if I had to guess based on the prices being asked, it probably doesn't hold a candle to the 240.

    Anybody familiar with more modern Cary or Conrad Johnson? If I buy used, I may be able to afford something from them. I live an hour away from Audio Classics so I thought I would pay them another visit and see what they have used. I just wanted to have a better idea of what I might be looking for before getting talked into the wrong piece down there. (They are honest guys, its just I sometimes get too excited in the moment and make the wrong purchase).
     
  6. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Ian,

    My suggestion is to look for a used copy of the VT-100 tube amp from Audio Research. I think it is a classic piece of gear and you should be able to find a Mark 1 version for around $2K.

    I would shy away from Cary since they have some reliability issues. C-J is a great brand, however.

    You have quality front end for digital (I love the 999ES-almost bought one, now saving for a 9000ES) and a good vinyl rig and good speakers. I think you will like tube gear. I listen to a lot of jazz and I find that modern tube amps get the tonality of the instruments more right than transistors.

    One bit of advice: listen to the amp with your own speakers. The impedence matching issue can be important. Also put some thought into whether you want a integrated unit or you need to get a quality pre-amp...
     
  7. IanL

    IanL Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    One good thing about listening at Audio Classics is that I bought my B&Ws from them, so I can have them hook up their floor models of the same speakers to whichever amps I want to try out.

    Thanks for the suggestions Lee. I will definitely do some research on the Audio Research amp you mentioned. And thanks for the heads up about the Cary products. I hadn't heard that they sometimes have reliability issues.
     
  8. Jeffrey

    Jeffrey Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    South Texas
    Hi Ian,

    That sounds like a great place for ya to demo gear! :agree: IMO, the perfect place would be your own listening room w/ all your own gear.

    I don't wanna bum anyone out but ya may be able to stretch your dollars further if ya demo at Audio Classics but buy from another source such as Ebay or Audiogon. True, there is no guarantee at Ebay or Audiogon but sometimes the price more than makes up for it.

    Just Another View,
    Jeffrey :)
     
  9. Jeffrey

    Jeffrey Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    South Texas
    Hi Ian,

    Nope, haven't heard a 250.

    I've seen rather nice looking 240's go for around $1,500 and decent looking C-20's go as low as $800 so ya may be able to score a lil' more than ya think if ya really play the waiting game at Ebay or Audiogon.

    Be patient (though, i usually am not),
    Jeffrey :)
     
  10. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Excellent! Good hunting...
     
  11. boead

    boead New Member

    First off, I recently went the used tube amp route. The problem I ran into when using a tube-guru equipment repair/designer guy (consultant) is that the older 15+ year old stuff is in need of repair in the sense that caps and resistors are generally shot in that they play, and quite possibly nicely, but are no where near their potential. So an attractively priced Mac amp that’s from the late 70’s or mid 80’s NEEDS to be re-furbished. Some gear from manufacturers like Bryson come with 30 year warrantee’s because the caps and resistors used have a 50+ year wear-out, that’s not common even amongst good stuff like Macintosh. Completely refurbished amp like a Dynaco 70 can be had for around $1000 but be careful!! Old iron is great but bad iron can be very expensive to replace.

    Decware makes the most affordable tube amp out their and most have a volume control for a single source input. Jolida make GREAT sounding integrated amps but are not built the best. I think it’s a worthy tradeoff.

    I bought a used Decware SET and a set of high efficiency speakers to go with them. I then had it modified to the hilt and still spent less then $800.

    https://athena.safe-order.net/decware/catalog.htm
     
  12. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    The MC250 is one of McIntosh's first-generation solid-state amplifiers delivering 50 watts/channel. It's the meterless version of the MC2505. The MC2100 (also first-generation Mac SS) is the bigger sibling of the MC250, delivering 100 watts/channel. It's the meterless version of the MC2105. All were carefully voiced to resemble McIntosh tube amplifiers. Obviously, they couldn't duplicate that sound, but all four of these early McIntosh SS amplifiers exhibit a warmth not generally associated with transistors (especially for SS of that era).

    I've heard a 2105 that met original specs and liked it very much. Since you're so close to Audio Classics, maybe you could give one a listen should any of this interest you. The sound is early McIntosh...slightly loose bass, excellent midrange and easy-going highs. Classic jazz and vocals would work very nicely IMO. Though not the ultimate in slam (McIntosh never has been), they'll churn out some perfectly enjoyable rock and pop, as well. Of the four amplifiers above, given your speakers, the 2100 or 2105 would be your best choice, with preference given to the 2105. I'd stick with these four McIntosh models for vintage SS amplifiers...JMO.

    If you should start to lean towards a tubed product, I'd consider VAC. As integrated amplifiers go, the Avatar would be an excellent candidate. The standard Avatar uses EL34 output tubes for a warmer sound with a great midrange while the slightly pricier Avatar Super uses KT88's for more punch and authority. Since VAC components are among the most reliable and well-built on the market, buying used here is significantly less dodgy than with many other brands. While a used Avatar will probably fall outside the budget you've set, you might get lucky and find one for a touch over $2000. Worth keeping your eyes peeled for, anyway. I think used VAC products are one of the best options out there.

    Bear in mind what boead's said about vintage tube components holds true for vintage SS also. Many vintage SS components will need a bit of a tune-up to meet original specs. Not necessarily cost-prohibitive, but an added cost nonetheless.
     
  13. Randy W

    Randy W Original Member

    I have had a Cary SLP 90 pre-amp for over 10 years and have had no problems. I have had a VTL ST-75 even longer and can recommend it or the ST-80 (especially with KT 90s). This would fit your budget purchased used.
     
  14. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    Another option is to find something like a used Scott integrated, a 222 or 299 or some such, and then have it updated/upgraded. Mapleshade offers the upgrade service, as does some others I can't remember right now. I owned a 222 for a long while and liked it very much. Bass defintion might be a problem, but it depends on the speakers.

    John K.
     
  15. IanL

    IanL Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Randy, thanks, that gives me a balancing opinion on the Cary products. I guess I'll ask lots of questions about repair history if I audition their products.

    My speakers are capable of giving me some pretty nice and deep bass reproduction, so I guess I don't want to give that up if I can help it. So I guess that is my attitude toward the bass. I want to keep as much as I can, but I also understand that the characteristics of low end sound are different with tube amps than with solid state. I don't mind different, just don't want it weak.

    Arin, the VAC integrateds that you mention sound very interesting. I always just dismissed that brand assuming they were well beyond my budget though. But if I knew exactly what I wanted, maybe patience would pay off eventually.

    As far as having a Mac amp repaired, that is something i will have to consider carefully. If I buy a used Mac from eBay or audiogon, I will want to take it to Audio Classics to do any work on it Because I trust them and the Mac guys (owners/designers) are in there pretty often, so I know they know their stuff. If I actually buy a piece from them, I assume all that work will already be done and I will pay a premium for it in the final price of the amp. So I don't want to audition something there, then buy it cheaper elsewhere, and then go back to them to do repairs/updates. I think that would be kind of cheesy. If any of this becomes a concern, I will have to think it through carefully.

    Thanks for all the help guys, I appreciate it. Please give me more opinions and/or experiences to consider if you have them.
     
  16. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Vintage tube amplifiers aren't going to give you a whole lot of bass definition. I think the closest you'd come to that would be either a Marantz 8B or the Model 9 monoblocks, which are somewhat pricey and very pricey, respectively. The rest are loose on the bottom to varying degrees. With McIntosh, for instance, it's not that it isn't full, it's just not tight like you'd hear from most of today's tube amplifiers. In fact, part of the McIntosh "house sound" is a bit of an emphasis in the midbass.

    If bass heft and definition is something you don't want to sacrifice, I'd look into modern tube amplifiers using either 6550 or KT88 output tubes (they're usually interchangeable). In most cases, you still won't get a mega-watt SS-like bottom, but you'll get plenty. Personally, I'd be willing to sacrifice a tad at the bottom for more magic in the middle, but YMMV.

    The Audio Research VT100 mentioned earlier has plenty of wallop in the bottom, but it's of the highly resolving school of design rather than the warm and rich variety, which may or may not be to your taste. All but some of the earliest AR's lean that way.

    Conrad-Johnson's are of the warm and rich type with a bit of softening in the bass, although their later offerings are apparently moving towards a more neutral character. Problem is, most are going to be over your budget. You might scare up a used MV60SE (6550 output tubes, 55 WPC) which is a current product. MSRP is $3000, so a spotless used example could maybe be had for around $2000 or so. The Absolute Sound reviewed it late last year, and I *think* you might be able to access that review through C-J's website. Another option might be a used Premier 11 (6550 output tubes, 70 WPC), which is no longer made. MSRP was about $3500, so it would probably fall into your budget by now. I *think* there's a Premier 11 review in stereophile's archives, but it might've been the Premier 12 review they decided to archive.

    Do keep your eyes peeled for those used VAC's. They've been at it since the early 1990's I believe, so there's plenty on the street. I recently picked up a used VAC preamplifier and like it very much.
     
  17. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Arin seems to know tubes, but I am not sure I fully agree. I would describe my VT-100 as being a neutral, natural sound more than one that is overly analytical. I think of transistor amps as being prone to being more analytical. The deep bass is superb, but I am more sensitive with respect to mid-bass. If that's missing then the whole things blown IMHO. The new ARC amps are even more natural sounding...

    Sorry Arin, maybe I am being the biased owner here but I have listened to lots of amps with extended sessions and the VT-100 has been a long-term classic for me. :)
     
  18. Joe Nino-Hernes

    Joe Nino-Hernes Active Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Not true! Vintage Eico amps, integrated and straigt power amps have great bass definition. The ST70, a 35wpc integrated has fantastic bass definition, and the HF-86 and HF-87 power ams have some of the best sound I have ever heard from any amp solid state or tube. Visit http://users.rcn.com/fiddler.interport/eico.htm for info and specs on the Eicos. These units give the sound "weight" and "power". You feel the dynamics of the original performance. The midrange is silky smooth, and the upper range is very detailed, but never harsh.
     
  19. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    No, no...that's a fine amp you've got there, Lee. I didn't mean overly analytical, just high resolution. A different sound than the more euphonic amplifiers like C-J, though they seem to be moving toward a more neutral sound these days...

    If I had a VT100, I'd be proud of it, too. :)
     
  20. Jeffrey

    Jeffrey Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    South Texas
    Hi,

    I believe that Arin was speaking in generalities, which he pretty much hasta, given the subject at hand. In general, i completely agree w/ Arin's assessment and i'm a proud owner of a vintage amp. Personally, i'm willing to sacrifice bass tightness to have the sensation of having the vocalist and acoustical instrument(s) in my livingroom. My best read is that Ian would not be overly excited about that tradeoff.

    Life is a tradeoff,
    Jefffrey :)
     
  21. Jeffrey

    Jeffrey Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    South Texas
    Hi Ian,

    First and foremost, me thinks that Arin's VAC idea may be the best fit for your desires! :agree:

    In regards to Mac's, here's a 240 at your budget (though, not integrated) that has already had the Audio Classic fixup:

    http://cgi.msn.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...ry=50593&item=3092436401&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

    Happy huntin',
    Jeffrey
     
  22. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    I've never any Eico gear, Joe. Pretty good stuff, eh? Is that your page?
     
  23. Joe Nino-Hernes

    Joe Nino-Hernes Active Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Nope, but it is a great place to find info on Eico gear. Its funny, I thought the same thing, that vintage tube amps lacked definition, until I heard an Eico. They really sound good, I hope that you can hear one some day, they really are something.
     
  24. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    I'm just thinking primarily in the area of bass definition. Quite a few vintage amps out there with pretty good resolution up past that. Maybe I'll come across an Eico to play around with someday, provided the prices don't go the way of McIntosh and Marantz. :eek:

    At least I've got a resource now for seeing what they made. :)
     
  25. IanL

    IanL Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Okay, I've been doing some more research. I see quite a few Conrad Johnson PV-10A preamps on audiogon for $450 and up. Does anybody know anything about this model? It has a built in phono stage and I am wondering if the phono stage would be better than the external Creek OBH 8SE I have now. And how much of the Conrad Johnson sound would come through using only a preamp from them, paired possibly with a nicer tube amp from another company?

    P.S. what does "tube rolling" mean?
     
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