Tubes with contemporary music

How do Hoffman users feel about valves with contemporary music? By contemporary, I mean music mixed with abundant info in the low hz, or a sort of defining bass quality inherent to the music...

I suppose it's a roundabout question to a prospective amplifier purchase. I'm running Harbeth SHL5's and listen to a lot of music that is bass or at least rhythmically heavy - from Fela Kuti to Jon Hopkins and so forth.
Am I barking up the wrong tree with tubes? I'm currently running a Yamaha as701 which I find adequately powerful if a bit lacking in tone and character.

So far, I'm thinking along the lines of a Yamaha AS2100 (solid-state, Mosfet) or a Prima Luna Dialogue HP (EL34 tube integrated).

The perceived wisdom with Harbeth's is solid state and adequate wattage. Obviously tubes diverge from this, though I note happy Harbeth/ Cronus Magnum users around these parts. I'm also after integrated features like a quality phono stage etc. Thoughts appreciated...

 

I'm running a Primaluna Prologue One with my Harbeth C7s and I love the combo on pretty much anything I throw at it, including stuff like LCD Soundsystem, Run the Jewels, Zola Jesus, The Knife and other bass heavy music... YMMV.

 

I think that the more DDD the audio product the more bang for your buck you get with your tubes. I mix everything on tube amps which is a big "no no" but I can work for hours without getting burned out the way you do on SS powered monitors. So there you go.

 

I have a Yamaha A-S500, and have yet to come across an amp that produces low bass freqs quite as well, except for maybe the A-S1100 I auditioned for a while. However, I do think a powerful tube amp is probably the best match for a pair of British stand mounts.

IME, a good tube integrated will produce a more 3 dimensional sense of space without sacrificing much else.

 

I used to have a 30-watt Hybrid Class A amp, which features SS bass with EL34s for mids and highs and a JFET preamp. When I could no longer keep that in service I bought an all tube integrated (40 watt) noted for having grip (good transformers) and being better than most in its class.

I can say that the all tube integrated has much better bass control than the SS, which featured a nice transformer as well.

All of the negatives I expected with more tubes were quickly dismissed. In fact, with the stock tubes, the all tube integrated sounded very much like a high-quality SS amp. The preamp seemed even more silent than the JFET preamp, which had it's own pastiche of warmth.

I was able to switch out the stock tubes and the spacious 3D sound I expected appeared.

If you have time to shop, you might make fewer compromises than you might expect.

 

My tube amps do bass better than any Pass, Krell, McIntosh SS, NAD, that I have tried in my system.

 

Tubes and ANY music!

 

If you want bong rattling bass, tubes may not be the best idea.

 

OK, very similar taste and prospective setup!

Appreciate the insight, folks

 

Can you elaborate on any other differences you perceived between the AS1100 and AS500? Curious to know your feelings. Do you feel it's worth the extra outlay? Did you use phono stage?

 

The best bass I've ever heard was from a pair of tube Eico HF-60 monoblocks. They bested - at least to my ears - a 250WPC Threshold S/500 solid-state amplifier which had the ability to supply mega current. This was on a pair of UREI 813A monitors with 15" woofers. Sure surprised me, but the tube amp had better depth, control, and definition down low. Of course the Eico's had some truly fantastic and large output transformers.

 

The first time I auditioned an A-S1100, I didn't give it nearly enough time to break-in. I ended up with a Parasound HINT, then upgraded my speakers a few months later (I know, not a wise upgrade path).

For fun, I decided to experiment with my new Spendors and pulled the A-S500 out of storage. I was pleasantly surprised. The A-S500 can dig deeper than the HINT and has better PRaT. The HINT still outclasses the A-S500 in terms of ultimate resolution and imaging, but not by a huge margin.

This got me thinking that maybe I need to give upper tier Yamahas another go, so I bought a new A-S1100 from a local dealer. Initially, it was a far cry from the tonal balance of the A-S500. It was piercingly bright on some tracks, there was some smearing, and bass was not as deep. I was ready to return it and take a hit with a restocking fee. I decided to wait until I took delivery of my tube DAC, and I'm extremely glad I did. I gave the amp a workout for a couple weeks and it morphed into an entirely different beast. In contrast, the A-S500 never exhibited this sort of transformation.

I'm now running the 1100 with a (previous owner modified) Line Magnetic 502ca tube DAC. This is the closest I've heard digital come to sounding analog. The smearing and brightness is gone, and the bass is now equal, if not better, than that of the 500. Where it really surpasses the 500 is soundstage width, dynamics, and low level detail. Tonally, I'd say the 1100 is still a bit brighter than the 500, but it seems to be improving with each listen. The 1100 is definitely more lush. Even with the DAC in SS mode, strings and piano sound very similar to a tube amp. When I switch the DAC to tube output, the sound comes very close to that of my tube integrated, but retains the SS bass heft.

I think the amp is still breaking-in, as it seems to get better by the day. Others have mentioned long break-in periods with these amps and I definitely concur.

BTW, I'm told that distinguished primates prefer Yamahas.

 

I gotta hear this... How so?
-Bill

 

If you can, try to listen to a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum 2. Tube amps in general cannot deliver the current required to control more difficult woofers (lower impedance and efficiency) as well as solid state amplifiers. Again, this is a generalization and there are a few that can crossover to be more or less compatible. The Cronus Magnum has plenty of power and bandwidth to come about as close as a tube amp can come to SS control of bass frequencies. The mids and highs are best served by a great tube amp design, so there are few compromises here. I still suggest a listen before you jump headfirst into it. I haven't heard other tube amps fare as well on deep bass passages.
-Bill

 

I've heard systems with Manley amps that didn't lack for bottom end with the right speakers. I'm personally growing fond of Class A solid state - sort of the best of both worlds.

D.D.

 

Hah! Depth, Tone, Articulation. My amps are connected to two separate 20amp lines. They are high current and require 20 amp fuses. 15 amp fuses blow out. I think the iron alone in the amps weigh 100lbs. They handle bass beautifully. I have used Pass 1.2, Krell KMA 100's. Krell KSA 150's, McIntosh 2255 and 7200.

 

Thirty-two KT120s? Yeah. I'd like to hear it as well.

 

I don't think this question can be answered fairly unless you factor in the size of the room, choice of speakers, the price of your tube amp (giant tube amps that can drive anything cost a lot!), and the preferred dB level.

In my home, with my speakers and preferred dB level, a good tube amp would work just fine. But in a bigger room I would be glad I have my Electron Kinetics Eagle 2 with 200,000 pF in the upgraded power supply capacitors.

 

Yeah, Tullman has some bad tube amps, they don't get much more serious than this.

I only use an all tube path with my horn loaded system. The bass is so very natural sounding with tubes, a nice round sounding bottom.

Even the little EL84 amps have the sweetest bass. I have a Decware amp that uses EL34's and it produces tight deep bass.

I prefer the bass from KT88's, over the EL34's bass.

If you want the PRaT, you will need some power and the KT120's in the Cronos Magnum II, will do the deed nicely.

I run with a tube phono-pre, a tube preamp and currently using a PrimaLuna Progolue Five, with KT88's, driving the modded Altec Lansing A7's and I feel that, with this current combination, it is the best sounding combination.

I have an vintage EL84 family, Scott 222C integrated, which I really like, but, unfortunately, it has too much hum and is retired until I can send it to someone who can put it on the bench.

I do have a pair of Rogue M-150 monoblocks, running KT88's which will do 150-watts ultralinear or 75-watts in the triode mode. Even with this much power and deep, solid bass, this still will not accomplish bass heavy music like Dubstep.

For that reason, I run a separate 15" commercial sub, powered by a Crown XTi 2000. This is a class-D amp, running in bridged mono mode, producing up to 1,600-watts.

Deep bass is one thing, deep sub-bass is entirely another thing. It would cost a fortune to do that with tubes! And, the maintenance!

Because of the efficiency of the A7's, I can run with nice, room filling volume with the little Mini Torii, by Decware and it's only 3.9-WPC, but I still utilize the sub. When sub-bass isn't present, it just sits there, waiting patiently.

And, tubes with contemporary music, 1+

 

No, sixteen KT120s.

 

Ah, I thought it was 16 for each speaker.

 

WTF?!
"You'll shoot your eye out!"
-Bill