turntable - right channel has more surface noise!

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by marsupial, Dec 2, 2015.

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  1. marsupial

    marsupial New Member Thread Starter

    hi, first posting:

    with some recent upgrade money, i decided to upgrade my vinyl setup, and bought a bel canto pre2p preamp and a sumiko blackbird homc cartridge to work with my technics sl-1200mk2

    it was EXTREMELY nerve-wracking trying to install and calibrate this cartridge (my second ever), as the thing is TOTALLY NUDE and has no stylus guard, and i knew that if i dropped it or banged the stylus against anything, i would instantly be out $1400

    luckily i had some scotch to steady my hands, and i got the cartridge mounted and aligned (to the best of my ability) with a stevenson protractor that i printed out.

    at first i was quite impressed with my work! records that sounded great before now sounded cleaner and much better, and ones that sounded rough before still sounded rough, although i seemed to hear more noise from the right channel.

    i initially had the antiskate set to ~1.1 (as recommended in the cartridge manual). this wasn't enough! approximately 4 times, when i lowered the arm onto the record (with the cue lever), the needle would skip into track 1 (could this have damaged my stylus??). this no longer happened when antiskate was increased to ~1.5

    anyway, my suspicions were confirmed completely when i began recording some needledrops through my apogee duet. when playing back my recordings and looking at the spectral image, there is absolutely more surface noise (crackle and intermittent clicking) coming out of the right channel, while the left channel is almost COMPLETELY quiet!!

    i need help! do you think i should stop playing records until this is solved ? i really don't want to mess my new cartridge up that i literally just bought. should i have the thing professionally installed? is it already destroyed?

    open to any suggestions and thank you very much for reading
     
  2. Baron Von Talbot

    Baron Von Talbot Well-Known Member

    Return the cart. I got a Sumiko BluePoint EVO III with a nude stylus , too. That should not be a problem, BUT you can damage it by touching one of the four outer tubes with too much pressure. I am sure SUMIKO will help you out with a cart of that high price level. If Sumiko does not offer assistance contact your dealer and next time let your dealer install the cart for you. I have a long history and experience with carts and changing styli and/or carts - so it was no big thing for me to install the Sumiko; but you have to proceed with caution if you have not much experience
     
  3. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    1400 on a cart ?!o_O
     
  4. marsupial

    marsupial New Member Thread Starter

    baron von talbot, by your advice to return the cart, am i correct in assuming that you believe that the stylus / cantilever has become damaged somehow?

    i made certain that the needle itself contacted absolutely nothing during the installation process, so it must mean that the damage likely occurred when the cueing skips did?

    this is so frustrating because both the dealer and the manual both made sure to remind me multiple times that installation errors resulting in damage are absolutely not covered in any way !!!!
     
  5. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    I think it's the ant skate. Typically when you have more noise/distortion in the right channel, you need to increase AS. So try that and see what happens.
     
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  6. Either the set-up is not correct or you have a problem with the cart. I'd send it back. But then again, I never would have spent $1400. on a cart. There are a heck of a lot of great carts for a fraction of the price. If you are wealthy or something, get it over with, buy one of those laser turntables from Japan.
     
  7. quicksilverbudie

    quicksilverbudie quicksilverbudie

    Location:
    Ontario
    anti skate adjustment give it a try >


    sean
     
  8. sotosound

    sotosound Forum Resident

    Is your turntable platform level?

    I set mine up two years ago when we moved into our current house and didn't check it again until quite recently when I started to question surface noise from one channel and an over-eager anti-skating device.

    Then I found that it had acquired a gentle slope away from the wall. Once I corrected this it improved the sound, and reduced surface noise, plus the needle now lowers vertically onto the record. I do need a new stylus, though.
     
  9. marsupial

    marsupial New Member Thread Starter

    thanks for the replies guys. i will first try playing with anti skate and making sure the turntable is absolutely level before attempting to return the cartridge, which i am almost certain will be a complete nightmare. i'm really hoping it's just a calibration issue and that the stylus itself is fine
     
  10. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    The anti-skate set at 1.5 is within range, (assuming the scale is in grams) The outer rim of the record produces more skating force, as it is normal for your stylus to skate in to the first track. The records are designed with a "groove guard" or ramp to prevent the stylus from skating off the record. The skate inward to the first track will not damage the stylus, and it can even tolerate an accidental skewing across the record (at normal tracking force) and not bother it at all... not that we want that to happen, but no worries there. I do not think your anti-skating setting is causing the right channel noise. (it can, but audible effects only when there is another problem, such as the tracking force too light, or too heavy)

    The right channel surface noise can be one of a few things:
    1) the records have been damaged by previous play, wear is seldom even and will almost always be more on one channel
    2) the frequency response of the cartridge, or amp, is more treble on the right channel, or more muted on the left.. check your cable connections. If you are running a separate pre-amp, check the connection between the pre-amp and amp... a faulty or dirty treble control can also cause unequal freq resp. A dirty switch contact can also cause this, a tape monitor switch, selector switch, stereo/ mono switch, loudness switch.
    3) The right or left speaker frequency response is more or less treble, confirm channel balance by playing a mono CD, such as a Beatles mono version.
    4) It is very possible your hearing is unequal. I know this may seem a bit crazy, but most people do not hear exactly the same in each ear. Reverse the channels. If you still hear more noise on the right channel, then your right ear is more sensitive.

    I really do not think it's the anti-skate...
    I'll post if I come up with any more "bright ideas" :idea:
    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  11. Vinyl Archaeologist

    Vinyl Archaeologist Forum Resident

    azimuth can do this and be very difficult to set up.
     
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  12. marsupial

    marsupial New Member Thread Starter

    hi again,

    well to rule some things out:

    1) i tested output from both speakers with a calibrated measurement microphone. one speaker is not simply louder than the other

    2) the right channel noise effect is reproducible when cartridge wiring is swapped L > R. in this case the left channel has more surface noise

    3) i am not just "hearing" more surface noise out of the right channel, there is objectively more clicks, crackle, and hiss coming from the right channel. i verified this by spectral analysis of recordings made

    4) i need antiskate at around 1.5g to keep the needle from skipping into the first track, and i use 2.0g of VTF. slight upward adjustments in antiskate didn't seem to produce any differences, but i did not check this with spectral analysis. i don't want to set the anti skate TOO high

    5) i aligned this cartridge myself using the stevenson protractor from vinylengine. i did this to the best of my ability -- the entire process seemed quite imprecise. is it possible that redoing this (possibly using baerwald) could fix the problem?

    6) reading about azimuth adjustments was interesting, however i'm not certain i have any real way of changing that on the technics sl 1200

    7) for VTA, i simply set the counterweight such that the tonearm was "hanging freely", and i adjusted the vta until the tonearm appeared to be as horizontal as possible. this led to a ~1.5 VTA setting. could THIS affect right channel noise too?

    8) leveling the turntable with a bubble level tool seems maddeningly difficult. it will show as level during one measurement, and then show as slightly off the next!!!

    this is completely defeating me and i want to just throw this new cartridge down the garbage disposal or simply flush it down the toilet
     
  13. Vinyl Archaeologist

    Vinyl Archaeologist Forum Resident

    don't lose heart! experiment with some alignments. try leveling the table with a short traditional level. Eyeball azimuth and maybe experience with tightening the right or left screws more or using a rice paper shim.
     
  14. OcdMan

    OcdMan Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    I doubt you damaged it. A few skips here or there like what happened to you usually won't do that. Do you have the KAB tonearm damper? Among other things, it will improve handling during cuing. The Sumiko Blackbird is supposed to be a very quiet cartridge in the groove. Is the crackle emphasized over the entire LP or just during the first 30 seconds or so only at the beginning? The last time this happened to me, the crackle was loud in the right channel from beginning to end and the manufacturer deemed the stylus defective. But it certainly could be caused by something else.

    A cartridge that expensive deserves to be setup perfectly, which is a lot easier to do with the right tools. Leveling a turntable can be a pain sometimes. Do you have a level that you can put across the entire platter with the mat off? Home Depot and Lowe's sell decent ones. For alignment, you might want to consider an Accutrak protractor. I have no affiliation with them but it makes alignment a breeze and when it's done, there's no doubt it's correct. I have the thick version which means I can just place it on the mat without an LP underneath. I also have a small circle bubble level that I put on the headshell. I bought a handful of them on eBay for a few bucks and kept the most accurate ones. After accounting for the extra weight and setting the anti-skating to zero, you place the stylus on a stationary LP. From there it's easy to set the tonearm height and azimuth to completely level, which is where you want to start and then tweak from there, only if necessary.
     
  15. marsupial

    marsupial New Member Thread Starter

    hey!

    after exhaustive experimentation, i've come to the following conclusions:

    1) the turntable was not even close to being level. i picked up a large circular leveling tool (bubble) to compliment the smaller, horizontal bubble tool i already had. the insane thing is that i would place the tool on the silver chassis of the turntable and level it, but upon moving the tool to the other side of the table, it would no longer show as being level. i got it the best i could (should i place the tool on the platter close to the spindle to level?). i might have to head to lowe's for a larger level that i can put across the whole table. also with the stock feet it was challenging to alter the level of the turntable sufficiently

    2) without doing a listening test after having leveled the turntable as best i could, i recalibrated the alignment according to the vinylengine baerwald protractor. this required that i place the cartridge basically all the way forward in the technics headshell, and even then the stylus was ~1 mm away from the circular tracking line towards the middle. i simply couldn't get it any closer, but have read that a sumiko headshell would give me some additional room. i might buy one!

    3) i had the VTA super low. i first experimented by playing a 12" single, with the vta all the way at 0. the bass was huge and muddy and everything sounded off. i then put the vta at 6 (max), which made everything overly bright. after a long time of minor adjustments, i ended up setting the VTA at around 2.8, which seems to be a nice happy medium

    4) at ~1.5 anti skate, i had another skip into the first track (of the SAME stupid album). i ended up having to turn the anti skate up to around ~1.8

    with these adjustments, things sounded markedly better. in fact, i am listening to a needledrop recording i made after the entire process, and i'm happy to say that regular vinyl surface noise is no longer highly concentrated in the right channel!

    not sure if i quoted that correctly. i called a guy from the hifi shop near me, who offered to come to my house and align the cartridge perfectly for me. i'd probably have to tip him ~100$ to do it, do you think it's worth? also i was planning on replacing the technics arm with an SME 309 or a rega rb303!
     
  16. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    This is a nice detailed description, and I think enough info to advise.
    First of all, the levelness of the turntable just needs to be close for now. I say this because a properly functioning cartridge would not produce the extreme symptoms, or even slight symptoms when an adjustment is a little off. In other words, slightly off level, or the anti-skate a little off, or the VTF a little off will NOT CAUSE a healthy cartridge to mess up badly, if at all.

    The problem is not your tracking force, is not the anti-skate, nor is this caused by the turntable slightly off level. (do level the TT, and so be precise with the alignment/ setup... but slight errors are not causing a lot more noise on one channel)

    BTW when setting your tracking force, balance the arm with the stylus just touching the groove, or within 1mm of the groove. By balancing the arm level, incorrectly, the VTF will be about 0.1 gram light... that's still ok.. no need to rebalance for now.. you're well within range.

    Your Sumiko Blackbird comes with an elliptical stylus, so the offset and overhang alignment is not super critical for this cartridge. (The Stevenson protractor is more than sufficient) Even when off by a degree or two, the elliptical will track just fine. Even if it were way off, the misalignment would not produce more clicks on one channel. In this case you may get inner groove distortion, and diminished detail, but that would be more evenly balanced on the L and R channels. I guarantee, no one anywhere in the world could force a properly functioning cartridge to make more noise on one channel by messing up the anti-skate and/or the protractor alignment. The proof is in the original AR turntable which has no anti-skate, a turntable I owned for many years, and never a problem with channel balance or more of this or that on one channel. No other owners of the AR have reported any such problem .... So the noise in your right channel, again, is not the antiskate, nor with any error in lining up with the Stevenson protractor. (apologies for my mini rant.. all the anti-skate suggestions make me delirious)

    The azimuth is a different story. If the azimuth is off by a couple of degrees, one side of the stylus will tend to track higher on the groove wall, and the other side deeper in. The upper part of the groove will almost always produce more noise, as this area is closer to the record surface, where any minor scuffs and scratches will be tracked by the stylus... and can be on one channel only.

    Check the azimuth by eye, looking straight on to the front of the cartridge. Just observe that the stylus is at a 90 degree angle to the record surface. Even when off by as little as 2 degrees, you should be able to see a "lean" of the stylus one way or the other.

    As a last resort, also check the stylus carefully under magnification for anything that may be stuck to it. =OR= Just clean it with a stylus brush, back to front, and wet the brush with isopropyl. (I clean with back to front 45/45 degree angles to also reach the front of the stylus, but some may feel intimidated using this somewhat side to side motion.. but this is the proper method, and the best method) There isn't a better way to clean a stylus. As far as I know, the only manufacturer not to use isopropyl is Ortofon, as some people say it attacks the epoxy they use to glue the stylus in place. (which does not make sense since all the epoxy cements I know of are not water based, so a water based solvent should not affect it) Maybe another member has experience with Sumiko, however just once isn't going to dissolve the epoxy.

    The only other possibility is that the stylus is defective. If it is, Sumiko gets a slap on the wrist, as they claim each cartridge is inspected and tuned before it leaves the factory.
    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
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  17. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Just to rule this out, it is possible your records have been damaged. Test your cartridge on a new record, or on a record known to have played perfectly on a previous high quality cartridge. The old ceramics can do serious damage to one side of the groove, caused by a combination of factors

    1) low compliance, stiff suspension
    2) heavy tracking force
    3) no antiskate on the record changers, the result of heavy tracking = heavy skating force, so one side of the groove wears more quickly than the other, usually the inside wall.
    4) a worn or chipped stylus

    Groove wear can manifest in noise, clicks and static noise. Wear does not always manifest in distortion of sound, although mostly it does.
     
  18. Brando4905

    Brando4905 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Marion, NC
    As a sl1200 owner, I would realign the cart to what Technics recommends, 52mm from washer at end of headshell connection to stylus tip. With the cart square in headshell. This should shed some light on wether or not your Stevenson alignment was off or not. Several variables come into play when printing protractors, the size could be off by just a bit throwing the whole setup off. You may prefer to go back to Stevenson, but at least this would tell you if the cart is screwy.

    If you don't have the Technics alignment jig, KAB sells them, they are worth their cheapness. You can also just simply use a ruler.

    I think further up this thread someone recommended the KAB Fluid Damper? This addition made a world of difference on one of my 1200s.
     
  19. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    I see that I was responding to your first update, as you posted the second one..
    The Technics alignment tool would suffice, but there's nothing wrong with using the Stevenson template.
    OCD man is right, and I agree that your Sumiko is worthy of a perfect setup.

    But that's not the problem. (even though you have reported an improvement)

    I must stress, the degree of surface noise you have described in the right channel can not be caused by reasonable misalignment nor anti-skate minor mis-adjustment and not the VTA. Tweaking the alignment is only improving the symptom as you have your cartridge in a happier zone. Your stylus should never skip a groove, even in a significant state of misalignment.. given there are no mechanical problems with the arm. You could set the anti-skate anywhere from zero to +3 or higher, with the tracking force at manufacturer spec, and the stylus would never, never, never skip a groove. That just does not happen within the anti-skate setting range. Also with the turntable reasonably level (just a little off) you would not encounter a skipped groove problem, certainly not more surface noise in one channel.

    If you're in the ballpark, the cartridge should perform well ..... not optimally, but at a very high level.

    I own a Technics SL-D205, direct drive, and can not force my cartridge to skip a groove nor make more noise by propping at an angle of 5 degrees, and that's a lot... (more than that does skip the first groove) Nor does my AT57 XE stylus skip with anti-skate set at zero, or three, when tracking at its recommended 1.5 grams. I just tried it!

    It might be easier to level the turntable by placing your bubble level on the platter. The base of the SL-1200 is not made true on its upper surface as there may be a slight curvature. (My SL-D205 has a slight curvature) And there may be small hills and dales on the top of the plinth, which would drive you crazy.

    The cause or the rt channel noise, and skipping a groove is something else. Once that condition is corrected, THEN you can go ahead and tweak the setup.

    I have not mentioned to check the arm bearings. When you're balancing the arm, check that the bearings are free. (be careful as you do this) Set the antiskate to zero. With the arm balanced, check to see if the arm wants to skate inward, or if the arm sticks. If it does, then there is a mechanical problem. If the arm skates in (as the arm is balanced) the antiskate mechanism is faulty, or the arm wires at the pivot are twisted and exerting torsional force... or hanging up on something. If the arm appears to be binding vertically or horizontally, then a bearing is adjusted too tight, and this can cause the stylus to skip ahead or repeat. Either of these scenarios would cause the stylus to skip a groove.

    However I am still thinking the azimuth is causing the surface noise in the rt channel. There may be a combination of mechanical issues, and the azimuth being out. A heavy skating condition would cause distortion in one channel, and maybe more noise...
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
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  20. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Among normal adjustments and alignments that could possibly cause this are: an azimuth that is way off, a VTF that is far too low.
     
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  21. marsupial

    marsupial New Member Thread Starter

    i think i'm going to be forced to buy the sumiko headshell which allows for azimuth adjustment and gives a little more room to work with.

    i thought after the last round of tweaks (my last update) that the problem was fixed. the turntable is now pretty level, i read some convincing articles about the merits of the baerwald alignment protocol, and i spent a lot of time adjusting vta until the sound seemed right.

    the first recording i made with the new setup looked quite clean. click repair on setting 5 made it sound like a cd. everything was great

    the next two...

    i am actually just now in the process of post-processing a vinyl recording i made last night. i ran it through clickrepair and noticed that it was eliminating some of the kick drum attacks, so i figured i'd do click removal manually for this record.

    the problem is DEFINITELY not gone!!!!

    in fact, it only becomes more mystifying and frustrating:

    (this was a 45rpm 12" single. side A was just one 7 minute song)

    for the first ~ 1/3 of the record, there was MARKEDLY more surface noise in the right channel. i would estimate that for every 9 clicks i had to remove from the right channel, there was maybe 1 click from the left channel (or both)

    i couldn't notice a pattern in the middle of the record

    for the last ~1/3 of the record, there was A LOT more surface noise in the LEFT channel. i wouldn't say the ratio was quite 9:1, but it was extremely noticeable.

    i checked the arm bearings. with the arm balanced, it tends to wobble a bit vertically but ultimately the main thing it does is travel slowly to the right (to its rest position, where the arm rest is).

    i feel sick over this.

    i'm going to make an appointment with the guy from my hifi shop and pay him hundreds of dollars to tinker around with it i guess. although i'm not feeling optimistic about it

    honestly, it's to the the point where i wish my hobby was alcoholism or gambling instead of home stereo.
     
  22. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Hey again marsupial,
    Did you set the antiskate to zero with the arm balanced? This is very important. Also check the arm at the beginning of the record, and at the inner groove area. I do not think you have a severe anti-skate mechanism problem at this point, as I was looking for a more positive arm movement (skating) to the spindle.

    I do not advise sinking more money in the Sumiko headshell at this point, since that isn't going to solve the noise and groove jump problem.
    If I were local, I'd help you with this troubleshoot/ setup for free.

    I do advise to invest in a stylus force gauge. The Shure stylus force gauge is a good one. This will confirm the problem is not light tracking force outside of operating range, as missan mentioned. Tracking force very, very light can cause the symptoms you describe.
     
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  23. OcdMan

    OcdMan Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    Great posts, The FRiNgE. And I still like the advice Baron Von Talbot gave in the very first reply: return the cartridge. Have them check the stylus tip for defects. If it's fine, great and move on to perfecting your setup procedure or repairing/replacing your tonearm, if it comes to that. If not, let them fix the cartridge under the warranty. For $1400, they should check it as a courtesy. Once it's back, if your local hi-fi pro offered to set it up for you, I'd take advantage of that.

    A couple of points. The easiest alignment method on the Technics is to just use the stock overhang gauge. Excellent performance over the entire side but very low distortion during inner groove play. Yes, I know its overall average RMS distortion isn't quite as low as Baerwald but the improved inner groove performance more than makes up for it, IMO. The Sumiko headshell is nice and sounds better than the stock headshell but it is more massive than the Blackbird needs. It might create more problems rather than help.
     
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  24. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    One more thing to check and I forgot about this, another member may have mentioned it.. The cueing pedestal must clear the arm. When the arm floats down, the pedestal continues to lower and clear the arm. It is probably ok as these usually do not fail on the SL-1200. But it is possible the mechanism has become stiff from old grease and dust, or a broken internal part. Just check to eliminate that as a potential problem.

    With the cue lever down, make sure the cue pedestal (platform) is not in contact with the arm
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  25. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    I hope this helps, cause it is difficult to troubleshoot via messaging, much like a doctor not present to diagnose an illness.
    OCDman's advice may be your best option.

    You buy a new cartridge, and you get all excited about setting it up, and listening to your favorite albums.
    You do everything right, level the turntable, line it up, balance the arm, set the tracing force, set the anti-skate.
    Then as you play your first record you're shocked and disappointed over some very serious issues, noise and a groove jump.
    So, you go back to re-check your setup, a normal thing to do, and see that all appears to be good.
    You play the record again, then a different record, same problem.

    At this point STOP !!
    The problem is not with your setup, more likely a mechanical problem (but read below to verify a few setup points)

    The problem is:
    1) a mechanical problem with the arm
    2) the stylus is defective
    3) a gross error in the setup (that fine tweaking does not correct)

    There are a few setup points to verify once again before returning your cartridge:
    1) Do the arm balance check again, antiskate set to zero. The arm should remain stationary.
    2) check the bearings for stiffness (you already did that as this is a potential mechanical problem)
    3) check the cueing platform clears the arm with the cue lever down (this is also a potential mechanical problem)
    4) check the azimuth by sight. (This is a potential misalignment of the cartridge, or a defective stylus) The stylus needs to be 90 degrees to the record surface. Just a slight lean can be noticed. The only exception is a person who requires corrective lenses, as the lens distorts vision ie: lines appear to be lightly curved.. even reading glasses do that.
    5) VERIFY tracking force with a tracking force gauge. You can check to eliminate any potential gross tracking force error or stylus suspension defects, by observation of the cantilever as the stylus just settles in the groove, the cantilever should deflect upward very slightly. If it doesn't then the tracking force is too light, or there is a mechanical problem. If the cantilever deflects a lot, then the tracking force is too heavy. You know something is wrong when this occurs. For your symptoms, I feel the tracking force may be too light, NOT the tracking force setting... the actual tracking force may be incorrect.
    6) antiskate mechanism check: with the arm balanced, set the antiskate to 1.5. The arm should move freely to the arm rest (to the right) Then you know at least the mechanism is working. This test will also reveal anything that may be hanging up the arm, such as the tone arm wires.
    7) antiskate setting: You can verify the antiskate setting by observation of the cantilever, again, as you lower the stylus in the groove, the cantilever should remain centered. If it deflects right, then the arm is skating in. If the cantilever deflects left, the the arm is skating outward, too much antiskate applied. You can check for gross antiskate errors by playing a blank record, such as a one sided 12 inch record. This is not how to set the exact antiskate needed, as the blank record does not apply the same friction to the stylus as a groove does, but does reveal a more serious skating problem. The blank record method can get you close by setting the antiskate to the point the arm wants to swing back very slowly to the arm rest. (about 1 inch per second) As a starting point the antiskate should be at or near the tracking force setting. As long as the antiskate is in the ballpark, and there are no audible issues, then there is no need to fret over it.
    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
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