Ultimate Led Zeppelin Vinyl Pressings!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Neilson77, Feb 26, 2015.

  1. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Hello,

    I come back to you ... for a final fight between my German pressing Led zeppelin ll (Side One RL) and my second Italian press. I made a test between the two sides A taking care to play them at the SAME VOLUME. For that I had to raise the volume of my file "Italian" 4.5 decibels to be on the same level as the RL! The Ludwing has an incredible energy reserve! Accuracy for needledroppers: the A-side RL is digitized in 24 bit 96000 hertz. My Italian pressing in 24 bits 88200 hertz. (it was a test ... whatever!). With this protocol, my Italian pressing left with a slight disadvantage. First surprise, the audio graphics are almost identical. They attest that both sides have the SAME dynamics! Stay the audio test. I played both files at the same sound level. My headphone is a Sennheiser HD 650. There I expected my Italian beat up! Not at all ! In fact, subtle differences but not spectacular! A more powerful bass on "Whole lotta love", an extra transparency and a deeper sound scene. On the other hand, the Italian pressing
    has a wider stereo scene (the small guitar parts seem to stand out better), a relief in the bass slightly superior ( very subtle) and the beginning of "Thank you" is a little cleaner than the Ludwing, I think! Hence my question about the term "mediocre". Always intrigued, I did another test. I played both sides via the headphone output of my Yamaha home theater amplifier. An output of circumstance, not audiophile. I first played the file RL then the Italian side. The RL file played very well at a good volume. For the Italian file, I had to increase the sound considerably ... to the point of hearing the distortion appear. THAT CONFIRMS THAT WHAT I SAY SINCE THE BEGINNING. THIS SECOND ITALIAN PRESSAGE IS MAGNIFICENT ON CONDITION TO BE CORRECTLY AMPLIFIED! REQUIRED POWERFUL AMPLIFIER !!! I am almost sure that when the local engineer received a copy of the tape he had to be impressed. Robert Ludwig has only magnified an already explosive mix at the base. In the case of the Italian cut one feels an "audiophile" rigor, a sign that the engineer was anxious to produce a very good cut. Perhaps he should have cut a little loud. It had a margin of almost 5 decibels. In my humble opinion, to qualify this pressing of mediocre seems to me excessive ... to the worst, excellent. Depending on the tastes of each. I'm not challenging your rankings, I'm sure you're right. In particular the Ludwig pressing with its brutal pulsation ... but I like the raw and refined sensation of my Italian pressing. Played at a reasonable volume ! ;-)

    Possible that you have passed the red line with this Italian pressing difficult to drive. I do not see any other explanation ? Not my kind of creating buzz ... I try to contribute as honestly as possible to this thread.

    Sorry for my rudimentary english. I apologize.

    Christophe
     
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  2. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Christophe,
    Sorry that I seemed to have offended you. All of this stuff is relative and not something one should be upset about. Perhaps mediocre was the wrong word to use?
    The Italian sounds nice, yet I found it fell behind many others as far as my preference goes. It just lacks the energy/power/attack that the top tier masterings have.
    And I used a high power amp with high efficiency speakers, don't feel redlining was a factor on any of the ones I tested. I used my ears and amp meters to gauge volume matching.
    If I am getting this right, you digitize for comparison? Why not test analog in analog mode? IMO, much is lost, well a lot is lost. That's fine for finding differences in mixes, not in presentation.
    And headphones are fine for play grading and picking up on low level details, but for rock, especially a recording like this, one needs to see how much air it can move!
    Sorry in advance if I have misunderstood you on any of this.
    Rock on,
    Slick
     
  3. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Hello Slick,

    Offended? Oh no ! I'm not likely. On the contrary, I find our exchange exciting. I only found your judgment very severe on the second Italian press.
    Maybe this thread should have been called the best alternative versions to the RL ! :shh:
    Let's be objective: what is a good pressing? A great dynamics, a solid bass, a good tonal balance, precise treble ... etc ... Objectively this second pressing Italian have these qualities. Its only fault is a lack of power .... maybe because of a less strong cut? The RL and probably other pressings evoked here ( UK plum, Pyros cut, Canadian first pressing...etc...) have a bestial breathing that lacks this second Italian pressing, that is for sure. The latter sounds rather tonic than breathtaking! On my system, my pressing plays wonderfully well. I have KEF Q300 library speakers. On the installation of my friend, more consistent, the RL widens the gap. Not spectacular but with an obvious. I wonder if there is not a correlation between the size of the speakers and the mastering played? The match RL versus Second Italian pressing reminds me of my match Sticky Fingers A3 / B3 versus my Canadian record club 1986 CBS. Despite a dynamic lower than the A3 / B3, it has a wider stereophonic scene. The guitars on the sides stand out better. Listening resembles a chainsaw with this amazing pressing !
    Of course nothing beats a listening from a turntable. There is a loss of presence when digitizing a vinyl ... substancial but real. Nevertheless I can assure you that most of my rips surpass my editions cd (often too compressed, sometimes too bright or too smooth). It's a compromise because I have the chance to listen to my music at my work !

    I will buy a second vinyl turntable when I have sold my second Italian press of Led Zeppelin $ 1000 on Ebay!:laugh:

    For your information, the fifth Italian pressing of Led Zeppelin lll is magnificent. Better than my US repress 1977 Mastercraft or my German reissue 1989!:agree:

    Cheers

    Christophe
     
  4. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.


    :righton:
     
  5. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    In my humble opinion, side two is also a George Pyros cut. There is such consistency with sixe one. I can not find any other explanation. I bought this vinyl sealed three years ago. I was a neophyte. What luck ! I also have the second Italian press. Not bad. A slightly higher dynamic and a little more slam ... but a lower bass and less sweetness.

    Strange even this Matrix !? Maybe an other explanation ?
     
  6. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Re: Zep debut, 1977 US press,.
    Sd two is a DK, what might explain it is what you have looks like older Piros mastered plates are being coupled with a DK recut from the 1977 time frame.
    :shrug:
     
  7. Neilson77

    Neilson77 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Nottingham UK
    I'm interested in hearing people's opinions on the US RL of II vs the UK Plum. How do they compare sound quality wise?
     
  8. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    I'll have a go at this, all IMO of course.
    A forum bud loaned me a A2/B2 UK plum recently and naturally I had to see how it held up against the RL.
    To make a short story long, I feel it's of import in this comparo to understand the circumstances that occurred in making this classic. The band recorded it on the road, stealing away to record in many places using different studios/engineers/gear/possibly different tape brands/mixers. Just a hodge podge of tracks recorded on the go.
    With the RL I get the impression that RL set the controls for the hotter tracks and let the rest roll (prob not true).
    With the UK plum, the album has a much more consistent sound, track to track. As if the engineer adjusted the stronger to match up with the weaker.
    Anyway, I found the RL more powerful/raw/bordering brutal.
    The UK was powerful, yet more refined with a more consistent presentation.
    While I feel that the RL easily bettered the UK, to what extent depended on what track one compares.
    BTW, I felt the UK easily bettered the Piros.
     
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  9. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    I haven't heard the LZs you're comparing, but I had to pipe in on this:

    "Anyway, I found the RL more powerful/raw/bordering brutal.
    The UK was powerful, yet more refined with a more consistent presentation."

    I find the very same thing comparing many varied US vs. UK cuts. The US approach works well on some records, while the UK is better on others in my experience. What sounds better to the listener will all depend on what you want out of the recording.
     
  10. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Absolutely, but the RL is a unique recording, not the usual compensation for lesser tapes. Not only is it raw, it checks many other boxes, it is just so powerful/dynamic, that it's other qualities are not always spoken about - it just has to be experienced to understand.
    But, what you speak of is what won me over to the UK over the US Piros, which is also a wonderful cut. The plum just has more of what the Piros presents, and with more fluidity.
    The RL is just a BEAST!!! It is a rock record!
     
  11. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Hello guys,

    Listened to a German pressing of Led Zeppelin ll ( PF in both sides). Not bad. A dynamic similar to my other pressings, german RL side one and my second italian press. Lots of air around the instruments. A smoother print to listen (quite typical of the german presses. Beatles white album DMM for example). Robert's voice is a little more present too. Like some guitar parts. In the middle of "Heartbreaker" for example. But less brutal than RL or less tonic than Italian. A more relaxed listening. The micro-details are more incisive on RL and the italian. Nevertheless this pressing German PF is very nice. Another flavor.
     
  12. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Hello Guys,


    I took the time to compare my three pressings of Led Zeppelin III. Here are my conclusions:

    Fifth Italian pressing 1971: Very great dynamics (especially the one side), solid bass, a lot of depth in the stereophonic image, soft acoustics, lots of realism favoring the power of the drums, a rich and full sound.

    German pressing 1989/1990 : The cleanest of the three pressings. The clearest sound also. Because of that it seemed bright, but it is not finally. Unfortunately because of a significant compression it does not breathe much. Not very exciting. The quality of pressing and packaging is exceptional !

    US Monarch Pressing 1977 : Looks almost like a compromise between my Italian press and my German press! Cleaner than my Italian pressing but a little less than German pressing. The side one ( GP) is somewhat compressed whereas the side two ( Mastercraft in deadwax) has a very good dynamic. Not as percussive and deep as Italian pressing though. A very good pressing to start ...

    At the end of this match, the Italian press is clearly the winner.

    Other contributions?

    Be as specific as possible. I wonder how the UK A5 / B5 rings and the first Canadian press ( Red labels TG in deadwax) compared to my fifth Italian press?

    Ultimate detail: on my three pressings, one does not hear Bonzo's battery that squeaks.

    Christophe
     
  13. Dr. Funk

    Dr. Funk Vintage Dust

    Location:
    Fort Worth TX
    LZ III early US vinyl is very confusing and intriguing. I have owned many (around 15) Broadway pressings over the last 20 years. With all the mote, wilt, thou, and other ancient language in the deadwax. I have found these pressings to be all over the map sonically. Most are very lacking, while others are mediocre and there are a few that I would consider dynamic. I have personally heard two. The first is an early Presswell that I own, and the other is a Monarch that is owned by a friend. They are very similar
    when it comes to sonics, but I would give the edge to my friends Monarch. I currently own two early Broadway's, the Presswell which is well balanced, good bass, very open and dynamic, and another pressed at RI which is the total opposite: anemic, with almost no bass, muffled to the point of being dead. I keep it to prove how different these pressings can sound. I also like 200 gram Quiex, and I'm fond of the latest reissue.
     
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  14. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France

    Hello,

    My pressing Monarch is not bad but my fifth Italian press is really on top! The dynamics on Friends is so great that you have to get up to lower the volume! Most striking is the realism of the drum. Really living. Other pressings sound like drum machines! When I listened to this pressing I felt like hearing this album for the first time! Personally, I noticed that on my Italian pressings, the kick was superior to the pressings US. It's subtle on the first two albums, but really obvious on the third.

    Christophe
     
  15. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.


    The Mastercraft's were very abundant and pressed for years. So - many plates produced, and used for years. But the better ones are quite nice.
     
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  16. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.


    I would not judge the US based on one copy, and a reissue with mixed plates at that.
     
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  17. ODShowtime

    ODShowtime jaded faded

    Location:
    Tampa
    After I read your post I was curious about a UK plum vs a later US Piros, since we know the Piros is a bargain winner. And there it is at the end. Thank you.
     
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  18. ODShowtime

    ODShowtime jaded faded

    Location:
    Tampa
    I forget if I've mentioned this yet or not but I found my LZ III a few weeks back. Broadway Presswell with both Crowley inscriptions, Mastercaft; I really think it's a first pressing. The Atlantic sleeve appears to be 1970 vintage. It's beautiful.

    I guess because of the new reissues, the Zeppelin records have been piling up at my favorite store. I was able to sift through a pile of half a dozen LZ Is to find my beautiful early Piros, which rocks so hard. I also recently snagged a '77 reissue IV Porky Pecko that is in perfect condition, UK TSRTS soundtrack, UK Presence, a Monarch ITTOD, it's all there for me. And all dirt cheap. Unfortunately he knows to look for RLs; trying to sell a bowled Houses of the Holy for $30. Nope!

    So same thing with III, I had my pick of the litter. I had a crappy early RI copy, and later '77 reissue Piros with no jacket. I know that US IIIs are all over the map, but this one checked all the boxes and was clean. I love the way it sounds. Smokey but with detail, nice and smooth, has bass about as good as Ive heard it. The drums on Out on the Tiles sound like you're right in the bathroom with Bonzo. Close to how the instrumental track sounds on the reissue bonus track. I was considering tracking down a pricey UK copy but I no longer feel the need to do that. $15.

    It's going to start getting real expensive if I want to upgrade my collection further.
     
  19. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Hello Slick,

    You are right. A zeppelin lll with both sides Mastercraft must be a keeper (Besides, I pointed to my search list a Mastercraft Monarch or SCR side one). The side two is really superb and rivals with my Italian press, incontestably. But overall, the latter has a slight advantage because it sounds even more natural ( more extension frequency). The side one, cut by George Pyros is excellent, punchy with a good detail, but is slightly compressed and it lacks a little natural, kick and deep compared to my fifth Italian press. But I never wrote that it was a bad press!? On the contrary ! Review my post...

    Christophe
     
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  20. Dr. Funk

    Dr. Funk Vintage Dust

    Location:
    Fort Worth TX
    Congrats on the LZ III find. It sounds like you got a good one. I really like my 200 gram Classic, but I find myself reaching for my original Presswell more often. There is something about that early organic sound that speaks my language. Led Zeppelin III is such an incredible, and unique album. I seem to appreciate it more and more with every listen. In regards to Houses, I would recommend a later Piros. I have a 1977 SP reissue that sounds so balanced, the highs, mids and bass are damn near perfect. Don't get me wrong, my Sterling RL sounds fantastic, but the Piros has a little something extra. You are right my friend, buying LZ vinyl is an expensive venture, but so worth it.
     
  21. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Hello,

    Organic! This is the term that best describes my Italian press! My reissue Monarch of Led Zeppelin lll is excellent (especially the two side Mastercraft in deadwax) but my fifth Italian pressing is even better! The difference is evident especially in depth (my other pressings have a wider stereo scene than deep), the impact of the drum, realism and the extension of frequencies. It has a vibration that I do not find in the pressings I have. It is subtle but it is enough to make this pressing magic while the master is hard to master, as pointed out in a previous post, Steve Hoffmann.

    Cheers

    Christophe
     
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  22. Christophe Lethimonnier

    Christophe Lethimonnier Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Hello,

    Do you have the UK plum? I was wondering if this one have the version of "Since have been loving you" with the drum that squeaks. Or maybe on one side one Mastercraft US pressing?

    Christophe
     
  23. ODShowtime

    ODShowtime jaded faded

    Location:
    Tampa
    I agree with your sentiments on III, and "organic" is definitely a word I'd use to describe the recording in general, and specifically early Presswells seem to exhibit this quality.

    I have a half RL half Piros HOTH that I just spun and the Piros cut first side sounds pretty great to me. I'm in the market for a cheap, clean, SD 19130 full AT/GP. I'm in no hurry but I want one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
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  24. Dr. Funk

    Dr. Funk Vintage Dust

    Location:
    Fort Worth TX
    Hello Christophe, your US LZ III pressing is a 1977 reissue? Correct? In my experience, the 77 reissues of LZ III are suspect. I've personally have not heard one that sounded above mediocre. I have spent many hours and lots of $ searching early Mastercraft (Broadway) pressings that sound good. As I stated in my earlier post, I believe they are few.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
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  25. ODShowtime

    ODShowtime jaded faded

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    So does anyone know of any Coda pressings that are better than others? That's the frontier for me these days I guess.
     

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