Upgrades or replacements from a Nagaoka MP-110?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by L0L59, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. L0L59

    L0L59 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Hello all!,

    I have been looking for a while to upgrade from a Nagaoka MP-110. To be honest, I'm kind of sick of the sibliance it produces on some records. I have tried just about everything to get it to sound better, but the sibilance doesn't go away. I bought a Sumiko Rainier from a local dealer, but I did not liked how it sounded, so I returned it (Not enough treble, but very good bass response). There used to be another thread also mentioning my problem, but most if not all of the cartridges mentioned on that thread are discontinued, and now fetch higher prices online.. My budget is around $150, but I can definitely go higher. I want something that has a high treble response and to be a good tracker (not much surface noise and IGD).

    Thanks for your suggestions! :)
     
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  2. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Sadly, you need to spend more to get rid of IGD and sibilance. You need a fine profile stylus for that. You can retip the Nagaoka 110 for about 150$ at Expert Stylus Co. though. Otherwise the AT VM540 for 300$ is among your cheapest options for great tracking and minimal wear.
     
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  3. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Welcome to the forum by the way.
     
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  4. Dr. J.

    Dr. J. Music is in my soul

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Tracking my MP-110 at 1.85 g and I don't get much of any IGD or sibilance. Remember, there is nothing you can if the album already has groove damage: to be sure, some carts are better than others in minimizing IGD but it's still there. I have a mint UK Track Who's Next and every cart I've used (AT-95e, AT-125e, 440mlb, Denon DL-110, 2M Blue, Shure v15 iv) cannot track the Song is Over without distortion.

    I agree with Leonthepro's recommendation for the new VM540 which retails for $249. Buy it now at Deepdiscount with the 15% discount and get it for $212. However, I also see that you're running an AT-120. Not a bad table but it isn't doing any wonders for your Nagaoka. I would think long and hard about how you want to use your funds for upgrades. Personally, I would go for a better table.

    BTW, our family visited Puerto Rico a few years ago. Beautiful country. We're sorry that the recovery has been so trying.
     
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  5. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Strange, I both disagree that the Nagaoka doesnt have much IGD and sibilance and also that finer profiles cant remove most IGD. I mean if the Nagaoka which already is very fat tracks mostly good for you how can a finer shape not do it flawlessly? Can that Whos Next record not have worn grooves, it surely does if its an original UK Track.
    When going from my Nagaokas to a finer shape Ive since never had any real IGD or sibilance that isnt already on the tape or from worn grooves.
     
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  6. Dr. J.

    Dr. J. Music is in my soul

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    I didn't mean to imply that the Nagaoka MP-110 can track the Song is Over: none of the carts I listed can. And it has nothing to do with the condition of the record: the record was cut in such a way that all copies have it, regardless of condition. Perhaps the VM540 could do it. I don't have that cart. But its predecessor couldn't. My only point is that some records, inherently in the pressing or because of groove damage, will not be able to be distortion free.

    On this point we're in agreement. If there is real damage to the groove, some finer styli or conicals for that matter (e.g., Shure SC35C) will minimize the distortion but not completely remove it.
     
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  7. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    What is your turntable and phono preamp? What kind of condition are your records in? Do you have a record cleaning system?
     
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  8. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    If there is distortion in the music then yes, it wont matter what gear you have. Which I assume is the case with the Whos Next album.
    And yes, some gear can help reduce worn groove didtortion but not remove it either. Unless maybe you have a laser cart.
     
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  9. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Groove damage is often an issue with used records, no getting around it. The inner grooves are usually the first to go when the original owner's cart mistracks or they use a worn out stylus. The tops of the grooves get shaved right off. The track you mentioned is an inner groove track. I've never seen a used copy of Who's Next in any pressing that didn't have groove damage or scratches, which is why I've never bought one.

    Correct. On damaged records I often recommend a cheap conical cart. I like the Shure M35X, but it's discontinued, so I can't really recommend it anymore. Instead I recommend the VM95C , the AT91, or an AT3600. All of them are pretty cheap and will save wear and tear on a more expensive cart. Any of these are fine carts for damaged or beater records and will work with a variety of TTs.
     
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  10. L0L59

    L0L59 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    I'll see what I can do. I've heard some great things about Audio Technica, so I might go for that one. Thanks!
     
  11. L0L59

    L0L59 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    For now, I'm not sure I'm going to upgrade the TT for now. I'll do this last cartridge change, and then I'll replace it with something better, since I've only saved up for a better cartridge, not for a better turntable. I'll see what I can do about buying that cartridge, since I've heard some great stuff about it. I see also that you have lots of cartridges. Out of all of those, which one was the one with the least sibilance on that record (the one you mentioned).

    PS: Puerto Rico has changed a lot, and now with the protest problem, It's going to get worse. Recovery has been halted due to extreme government corruption, and I don't see it going away for decades, which is extremely sad to see.
     
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  12. L0L59

    L0L59 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Turntable is an Audio Technica AT-LP120 and I'm using it's internal phono preamp. Most of my records are between NM to VG+, and most of the sibilance problems are with records that are NM. I have a Spin Clean to clean my records.
     
  13. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I'm not sure what the effective mass of the LP120 tonearm is...it might be on the borderline where either the VM540ML or the VM95ML would work. Either would be my top recommendation for something close to your budget. There really isn't anything for $150 that I can recommend. For $200 you can get the VM95ML pre-mounted on a decent headshell, which should make your life easier as you only have to loosen the screws a little to do your alignment. After that you should be good to go. It will track the most extreme inner grooves I've encountered without a blip. If you're still getting sibilance after that it's the record. Many records have sibilance baked into the recordings or are just bad cuts. The latter is particularly true with a lot of newer records that aren't cut by top engineers using the best sources. Used records can also have IGD burned into them from groove wear even if the record looks mint.
     
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  14. L0L59

    L0L59 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    After seeing both options, I think I'm going for the VM540ML. I understand that some records already has sibilance from the moment the moment they're cut, but even some "audiophile" records have sibilance. I've never had any problems with any MOFI 45 RPM records, but most single LP, 33 RPM records from MOFI that I own have a degree of sibilance. The most recent offender was Duran Duran Seven And The Ragged Tiger from 1983. It doesn't have sibilance at Side A, but Side B has sibilance on the second and last track. That was a NM copy, but it was open, so it could be some wear (although it barely has surface noise).

    Other records that I do seem to have problems with are half-speed masters. Most of them tend to have IGD, some more than others. Even the previously mentioned Duran Duran record is half speed master and it has a degree of IGD.
     
  15. Dr. J.

    Dr. J. Music is in my soul

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Of the ones I mentioned, the Denon DL-110 is the best tracker and a miracle worker with minimizing surface noise. People say the same thing about the Nagaoka MP-110 but the Denon DL-110 is in another league in this regard. I love Denon and think it combines the best of the Nagaoka and AT: extended highs and wide stereo separation but with nice bass--not as deep or articulate as the Nagaoka but close. However, without the ability to change styli, I wouldn't buy another one until I try the VM540 first.
     
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  16. L0L59

    L0L59 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    I'm probably going to get the VM540. After that one starts to fade, I'll try to change the turntable. If I do end up changing the turntable, I might get a good phono preamp. Seeing as how the Denon is MC, do I need to have a phono preamp with MC support, or is a normal preamp supported by the cartridge?
     
  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The Denon is HOMC, so no special phono preamp needed. It's not the best tracker though, contrary to what some people say. It might be slightly better than the MP-110 at tracking (it has a better nude stylus vs. the bonded elliptical on the Nagaoka) but nowhere near any of the AT ML carts, not even close. @zombiemodernist will vouch for this, as he has all three of these carts.
     
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  18. L0L59

    L0L59 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Interesting. Thanks for the info!

    PS: I wrote a message for you previously, but it's still pending moderator approval, so it might take a while to send.
     
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  19. zombiemodernist

    zombiemodernist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeastern USA
    Yeah exactly my experience. The DL-110 is a step up from the MP-110 in tracking due to its finer nude stylus, but it’s still just an elliptical and exhibits IGD and mistracking on problem records. Currently I’m using the MicroLine stylus profile which has done wonders to eliminate all upfront tracking issues that OP is describing. You can debate the subjective qualities of all of these carts forever, but IMO without any knowledge of another’s system or taste, it’s hard to make a definitive call. If it’s tracking competency you’re after, skip the middle man of the DL-110

    Before you pull the trigger on the 540 check out the VM95ML, which may be a better match to your tonearm, and at a lower price point.
     
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  20. L0L59

    L0L59 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    I checked it out and the specifications seem almost the same as the Nagaoka MP-110 I already have. It has a little higher frequency response, and of course the tip is very different but I read some reviews and one stated that the sound was flat and muddy, while others say that the price isn't justifiable (even with the Microlinear stylus shape). I might give this cartridge a try, but I think I'm leaning more on the 540 (even with that much higher price point). But thanks for the suggestion!
     
  21. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Im not sure where you are reading these crackpot reviews but myself and others here and other places have performed a number of subjective and objective tests on the VM95ML. Flat frequency response is actually a good thing but muddy it is not, I can assure you. What it is, when properly loaded, is flat and accurate. Far more accurate and a better tracker than a previous daily driver cartridge I was using that costs over three times as much.
     
  22. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I can’t offer a comparison to the MP-1 10, but the AT-VM95ML muddy? Boy, I’d need to hear some unbelieveable detail from another cartridge to consider that a possible descriptor. Detail retrieval is very clear, and frequency reponse seems pretty damn flat.

    I would base the VM95 vs. VM54o decision on arm mass/compliance match, which is hard to call because I can’t seem to find the effective mass for the AT-LP120’s tonearm anywhere. My guess, based on AT’s inclusion of the AT-95E as the standard cartridge with the AT-120LP, is that the AT-VM95ML may be a better compliance match than the AT-VM540ML, but either could be a perfectly fine cartridge.

    Bottom line, the ML stylus gets rid of the sibilance and distortion you are sick of, unless of course it is actually present in the recording or the copy of the record you are playing.

    I’m listening to Hunky Dory with an AT-VM95ML right now, and I’m pretty sure David Bowie is playing a piano in my living room. Muddy? No ****ing way.
     
  23. Dr. J.

    Dr. J. Music is in my soul

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    It looks like this comment came from an Amazon reviewer, who finds his AT100e crisper and brighter. My brother has this cartridge and I have the AT120e/125lc: both carts have that exaggerated AT treble boost. From everything I've read, the new VM series has extended but smoother highs. Perhaps, that explains the comment.
     
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  24. zombiemodernist

    zombiemodernist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeastern USA
    These were my thoughts exactly. I also agree with your subjective impressions on the cart and can confirm that with my own FR test, my cart was quite flat loaded into a standard 47k load, so there’s no “muddy” stuff going on to my ears or to any measurements. Older AT’s did struggle with linearity at a 47k load, so perhaps some people may miss that lifting HF response, but that should not be mistaken for accuracy.

    But to your point above I think stylus profile and compliance match should be the table stakes for any cart purchase. It’s like when you’re buying a shirt, the fit / size is usually the first order of business before you start worrying about fabric, pattern or what kind of buttons it has. From there when you’ve found a suitable crop of carts you can whittle that down to subjective taste, but as with music, movies or literature it’s best to form your own opinions rather than relying on Amazon randos.

    And FWIW the I think the new LP-120x uses the VM95e as the base model as well.
     
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  25. Geoff Whiteley

    Geoff Whiteley Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Derby
    I had an MP110 on my Rega RP3, and wanted to upgrade, but couldn't afford the MP200, so I bought a JN-P200 stylus from Japan, and have to say I like the improvement. My hearing isn't up to audiophile standards, but I find less surface noise, bass is full and detailed, mids and treble are also more detailed, solid spatial imagery, with space between instruments. The space between my speakers is filled, and it is a beautiful experience through my phones, where I do most of my listening. I didn't have any problems with distortion, so can't comment on IGD, etc.
    The boron cantilever was a snug fit into the cartridge, which may or may not help, and the stylus sits slightly further away from the cartridge body so some arm height adjustment was needed, but a definite improvement. Someone else reckoned about 80% of the sound of an MP200, but much cheaper.
     
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