Upgrading this year from a Dual cs5000 to a....

If you don't mind me saying, you got some excellent advice earlier in the thread.

 

I am very open to all of the suggestions. Ill probably start wit a great new cart first. Use my existing phono stage and then go from there. Depending on the sound difference I Might add a different phono stage and live with it for awhile . But I'll also look into auditioning different TTs. Either from a dealer or friend so I can hear other possibilities myself. All the suggestions are appreciated.

 

The CS 5000 is a lovely deck. My friend got a mint one from his aunt recently. I had a look at it to make sure the set-up was correct and was pleasantly surprised by how smooth it sounded (a Dual trait it seems as I`ve yet to hear a Dual deck that didn`t sound nice). However, to suggest that spending 2K on a Clearaudio deck wouldn`t be an upgrade is in my opinion not true. The Clearaudio (I haven`t heard the VPI so can`t comment) is a superb player for the money and I bet it would easily outperform the Dual in every respect. The XLPS is also an excellent phono stage that will do justice to most compatible cartridges - I even used it with a Clearaudio Signature MC for a while! (Though not in the same league as my Tom Evans pre it was still very enjoyable to listen to). This is simply my opinion so please be calm if you disagree with me as this forum has a terrible habit of descending into a slagging match all too easily...

 

Your CD player will be less susceptible, than your TT, to the acoustical issues of your room. If you buy a new TT and cartridge, it will perform best when placed optimally in your room.

 

I do understand and over the past five years I have had it in three or four sections of the long wall. And the position where it is now actually sounds the best (my TV is centered so the middle is not an option) . I do love my Dual, and as I play more and more records once again, digging back deep into my collection, it's what I am not hearing...missing. Especially after listening to other people's systems.

I realize mine may be somewhat of compromise like others here, since it is also my screening room with surround and not a dedicated music only setup. But I know how wonderful it all can sound. In many cases CDs actually sound better, but again that may be subjective. Yes vinyl sounds really good here, but again I know it can sound so much better. Was I ignorant to think the turntable is the weak link? I will most likely upgrade the cart first, per you suggestions, possibly go with the 20XL. That should improve things. If I still feel it is lacking I will look into something else rather than my Musical Fidelity X-LPS stage . I know I can borrow one or two from friends first, listen through theirs and see what happens.

BTW I have clean power. When we renovated a number of years ago we ran dedicated lines to this area and in each quad the left and right plugs are on different circuits. My wife is a commercial photographer and her studio is downstairs (this was a part residential / commercial building back in the 20s-60s and because of video and lighting we have a whopping 400AMP service coming into our building. I guess I could also upgrade the sockets as discussed in another thread here.

I love when others post photos so here's more...

 

If I was you, I would upgrade the TT/Cartridge combo. I think that you will hear a difference and be very happy. If it sits on a level vibration-free surface, I don't think it matters where you set it. When I upgraded my TT a few years ago, I chose a Rega P5 over the Concept. They both were fantastic tables for the money. The deciding factor was that I didn't think you should need to pay $250 on a dustcover for a $1,000+ dollar turntable.

 

You have a beautiful room. Have you tried playing records with the TT dust cover removed? When it is still hinged, and up, it will act like a microphone. Your dual might sound better if you remove the dust cover while playing records.

Are your speaker cables long enough to allow you to try your rack in place of that lovely cabinet in front of the maroon wall? That would get your rack out of a corner and the path of a lower frequency standing wave.

 

I will remove the cover. But the red wall has a window right above and a plumbed in bar and the cables will not reach.... Appreciate your suggestions.

 

You're welcome. Let us know how things sound with the cover removed.

 

Do I see this right, that your tonearm has a VTA dial adjustment on the headshell? I am reading this on vinyl engine:

 

Is your floor suspended? If so, the rack maybe more stable and your turntable will likely sound better where it originally was near the corner.

I would suggest keeping the turntable for now and mounting a dedicated wall shelf for the turntable above the rack. Most turntables I've encountered sound better when on either a wall shelf or light rigid table like an Ikea Lack or something more purpose built. Getting this sorted out could make a bigger improvement than a better turntable on top of your present rack. An Ikea Lack is something inexpensive you can experiment with if you can cope with the turntable on a low table.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40104270/

 

I certainly will. It is a very large room. The wall the stereo and TV on is about 27' feet long. The ceiling height above that wall with is about just over 8 feet hight and that lower ceiling section comes out about 7 feet into the room. Then the entire ceiling from the back wall slopes up from 9 in the back to about 14 feet. It's a nice sounding live room but not very reflective and no echo. Area Rugs and huge l shaped sofa

 

You are correct sir!!

 

Quick look and I can’t ID that specific cart. How do you feel it matches with your tonearm? How does the output of the cartridge match with the gain of your phono stage? What about the sound, more specifically, is not what you like? In what cases does a CD sound better to you?

 

I have a SOTA Comet (in gloss black) with a Dynavector cartridge. It's a very nice combination. I put one of those 'flip up your tonearm at the end of the album' gadgets on it and it works great.

 

I've been playing records on and off since the Beatles originally came to town. And even with all that listening, all those years, the knowledge of the technical side of gear never really interested me. It was more plug and play, and then play loud and often. It was just about getting the best sound of the records and CDs I had. So in that case I guess I am a newbie round you all. Being here on Hoffman has peaked my interest and opened my eyes and ears a bit more to the gear side. Reading about the new possibilities and experiences others are having. And that's a cool thing!

So when you ask how it all matches, I don't have an intelligent answer for you. I do not hate the sound when I play records and like all of you here are always some that sound better and some that sound worse. I get the different pressings and my collection is pretty large and mostly in tip top shape (however I think the latest Hendrix AYE Mono UK sounds like crap, but it's a cool artifact for the price). But the new Atoms for Peace sounds GREAT on record, especially when I play it at the correct speed. And my original 1968 stereo Columbia S&G Bookends LP (even with visual scratches) sound better than almost any other LP I own. Some LPs though, sound a bit muffled, which seems more due to the older cartridge (even with a brand new stylus) than the turntable. But there are moments, when the record is perfect and I am sititing in the sweet spot, life is good.

I see all of you are way more geared out than I am with much higher end audiophile gear. I am not striving for that, but yes, I want the best possible sound with what I have...and open to making some upgrades to it all...

 

This room is on the third floor of my house and the floors are bamboo over a solid plywood subfloor with radiant heating underneath. I get very little vibration from walking around. It is newly renovated construction from 2002. This photo shows how the ceiling in the full area slopes up. To your right under the lower ceiling (behind from where this photo is taken) is the long wall where the rack is. So the ceiling height is staggered.

 

Simply put, you have a handful of variables. If they are not optimized, you really are not yet listening to the gear you have. If you can optimize the matching, you at least start from a base level so you can judge the equipment. It is pretty easy to determine if your cart matches well with your arm. It is pretty easy to see if the gain from the cart is too little or too much for your phono stage. If you can sort those two questions, you are going to have a much more specific idea of what might improve the situation.

 

I just wanted to say what a beautiful space you have there to enjoy.
This thread has been making me feel much better about my cs5000, even though I haven't used it (or any vinyl) for almost 20 years. I mostly chose it to replace a cheap Garrard just because I liked the way it looked with that natural wood slab. But then I kept second-guessing that I should have gone with one of the lower priced direct-drive Dual models because replacing and maintaining the belt became really annoying to me. It's nice to read here that if I ever decide to play my vinyl again, this Dual is well worth cleaning up into working order once more--or something that would be desirable for sale eventually too. Best wishes getting everything fixed up and improved to your liking.

 

Thanks!! Yeah My Dual was stored away from about 1990 until 2008 so there wasn't a lot of milage on it anyway. A new belt, stylus and set up and that was pretty much it. I'm guess since this is the original cart from 87, that might need replacing too... And of course the semi auto feature that lifts up at the end of a record side is great. And thank you about the room. It is a great place to listen to music. And I never disturb my neighbors since it is pretty well insulated.

 

Gorgeous room.

 

How would moving the TT to the center of the room help, if one has suspended floors and the room has been treated properly?

 

If your room is treated properly, the corner becomes a minor issue. If you stand in the corner, or stick your head in the corner while you're playing music loudly, and it doesn't have that "boomy" low-profile Honda sound, you've done a great job of treating the room.

Suspended floors can often transfer vibrations into the rack, and TT. So in that sense, the corner might be more stable (less floor vibration) than the centre of the wall.

 

A note for those who own the CS 5000. The headshell system is a weak point on this tonearm, especially the VTA headshell. The non-VTA headshell performs a bit better.

 

Sounds like it adds a bit of mass as well.