[very technical] Beatles UK first press: are we so sure that everything is clear?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Stefano G., Mar 11, 2014.

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  1. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    Hallo to everybody!

    I've just taken a research that I started a few months ago about the first UK press of the famous Beatles album "Sgt. Pepper"; really, I think that about the matrix numbers of this vinyl there is a little mystery: we well know that a trail-off as following: YEX 637-1 1 H does mean that we have a stereo first press stamped starting from the first lacquer, from the first mother and pressed by the 7th stamper (or child if you prefer): Parlophone used the well-known GRAMOPHLTD code.

    Now, I do not work in a pressing plant, but I'm quite sure that starting from one single lacquer we can generate about 100.000 vinyls (if we haven't problems during the plating process, otherwise this number is surely lower); with regard to very famous artists, we need to master many lacquers.

    The crux of the matter is: how is it possible that my absolutely original first mono press has a trail-off as following:
    XEX 637-1 10 MAA ? this trail-off does mean that it is a copy pressed by the 411th stamper that was generated from the 10th mother that was in turn plated from the first matrix; assuming that a single stamper is able to press about 700/1000 vinyl (I think it might be a good approximation), calculating 411x700=287.700 or 411x1000=411.000; now: if it's true that the matrix code 637-1 indicates the first lacquer (or the first matrix, because from one lacquer we can extract generally only one matrix) how it's possible that from a single lacquer they could press so many vinyls? according to my calculations, to press 287.700 vinyls we need at least 3 lacquers, but the trail-off as 637-1 tell us that it is the first lacquer. All collectors around the world say that the number 1 indicates the first lacquer, but now I'm not so sure! probably, Mr. Harry T. Moss at that time mastered more than one lacquer, but they are all indicated by the same number 1 in the dead-wax because they were all mastered using the same equalization and compression settings and therefore all these lacquers were virtually identical.

    But only a copy with stampers' number on both sides lower than 100 (about), it's a copy generated starting from the first lacquer: I'm quite sure that starting from one single lacquer we can generate only one father (or matrix if you prefer), from one father we can generate about 10 mothers; from one single mother we can generate about 10 stampers: therefore starting from one single lacquer we can have about 100 pairs of stampers (to press one vinyl we need two stampers: one for the A side and one for the B side) and about 100.000 vinyls.

    Therefore, my opinion is that regarding "Sgt Pepper", the trail-off code 637-1 does not indicate the lacquer sequence number or the matrix (or father) sequence number as they believe all collectors.

    In this web-page:

    http://www.popsike.com/Beatles-1967-UK-Ist-Press-STEREO-Sgt-Pepper-LP/180197107343.html

    we can find a copy with a stamper number equal to 911 (TGG) and the first part of the trail-off is always the same: YEX 637-1
    I really think that it's not possible to generate 911 stampers starting from one lacquer.

    I am convinced that this is a very technical and specific research, but there are plenty of Beatles vinyl collectors in the world and I think there may be some people interested in this research in this forum, too.
    Thank you for your attention.

    Stefano
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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  2. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    However, there is another "strange" thing, too: the collectors all over the world say that the text “SOLD IN U.K. SUBJECT TO RESALE…” was removed from the label in summer 1969. Parlophone continued to use the “Black & Yellow” labels until November 1969. Label without “SOLD IN U.K. SUBJECT TO RESALE…” was used between summer 1969 and November 1969; all vinyls without this text on label are considered "second pressings".

    Well: all the labels without the text "SOLD IN UK ..." I've seen, they had the trail-off with a stamper number rather low: usually between 100th and 200th; now, how is it possible that a "second press" may have a stamper number much lower than copies considered "first pressings"? (in my previous post we have just seen some first pressings with a stamper number equal to 433 and 911: I wrote something incorrect: the code MAA corresponds to the 433th stamper and not to the 411th stamper).

    We can find an example here:

    http://www.popsike.com/Beatles-Sgt-Pepper-UK-2nd-Press-Stone-Cold-Mint-Vinyl/390196961727.html

    Are we so sure that copies of "Sgt. Pepper" without the "SOLD IN UK..." statement really are "second pressings"?
    I really think that the dead-wax of this famous LP still has some mysteries.
    Thank you for any replies.

    Stefano
     
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  3. ronankeane

    ronankeane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    We don't know that the rule of '10 mothers per lacquer, 10 stampers per mother' was applied when pressing Pepper. If it did, then stamper 433 would come from the fifth lacquer, assuming they kept increasing the stamper number with each new lacquer. I think it more likely that either MAA is not 433 or they made a lot more stampers per lacquer.

    see steve's post here:

    forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/a-question-about-vinyl-stampers.298642/
     
    j4yheindeo likes this.
  4. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    The whole 'first pressing' 'second pressing' thing was a collector generated concept primarily to categorize or sequence the record labels. It does not track how records were manufactured very well.
     
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  5. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Your assumptions and calculations about 100,000 LPs from a lacquer are both incorrect. It's more like 100,ooo per MOTHER, not per lacquer (1 mother x 200 stampers x 500 LP = 100,000). Consequently everything else you've concluded is "garbage in, garbage out" (no offense intended).

    While the numbers are fluid and can be influenced by many factors, a better (and still not overly aggressive) calculation would be:

    1 lacquer x 5 mothers x 200 stampers x 500 LPs = 500,000 LPs/Lacquer

    Therefore considering that Pepper probably sold less than a million copies in the UK in the 60s -- of which maybe 40% were mono -- it's not surprising that virtually all, if not all, mono and stereo copies on the Black and Yellow Parlophone label have -1/-1 matrices (and probably are found on some 70s EMI box label pressings as well). And it's also no surprise that the mono metal parts were still able to be used for (some of) the 82 reissues.
     
  6. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    Thanks for your interest.
    Well: according to your calculation, we can press about 500.000 vinyls starting from one single lacquer.
    In this web-page:

    http://www.vinylives.com/recordpresses.html

    we can read an interview with Mr. Steve Sheldon (Rainbo Records General Manager), and he tell us that:
    "The family series can be broken down like this:
    • Lacquer master
    • Silvered master
    • Silvered nickel father
    • Up to ten mothers can be made from a single father
    • Up to ten sons can be made from each mother
    • This would allow for 100 sons to make a 100,000 piece order and still have the original silvered father on hand in case anything happened to the mothers during the process."
     
  7. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    His numbers don't add up. He says 100 sons (10 sons per mother and 10 mothers per father) = 100,000 LPs. So that means 1,000 LPs per son. Okay so far, however...

    He also says that at 100,000 units he still has the original father if a mother breaks. He doesn't tell us how much more life the father still has. Regardless the numbers don't add up and 100,000 is not the max. My guess is that Rainbo hasn't done a pressing run of more than 100,000 in 20 years or more, so they are very conservative in their numbers because there's no point in pushing the limits...one lacquer is more than sufficient to produce all the LPs one could want. EMI in the 60s was making far, far more LPs than Rainbo today and used everything to the max (lacquers, mothers, stampers, album covers, sleeves, labels, inner sleeves, etc) until it couldn't be used anymore.

    You can believe what you want, but I'm telling you that there was only one mono and one stereo lacquer cut for Sgt Pepper until the 70s. Stereo Side 1 was recut in '75; Side 2 in '71.
     
  8. Ray7027

    Ray7027 Forum Resident

    Location:
    pennsylvania
    Another thing to consider is that both EMI and Decca in the 60's used to make additional mothers from stampers. Both companies could produce high quality platings. If you look at the normal position of the mother on an EMI pressing of the 60's
    you will see two numbers above each other. From what I read the upper number is the new mother number from lower stamper used. ( 3 over 15 as example) New mother 3 from stamper 15. So they could have made a lot more mothers and
    stampers than normal on big production runs like Sgt Pepper.
     
  9. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    Believe me, I do not want to be right at all costs, I'm just taking of evidence and the interview with Mr. Sheldon is a good evidence; I do not work in a pressing plant and I'm not a mastering engineer, I'm simply a collector but I think that even you work in a pressing plant: how do you know that starting from one lacquer we can press about 500.000 vinyls?

    It is obviously impossible to say exactly how many vinyls can be pressed starting from one lacquer: many factors come into play: it could happen that the lacquer has default defects and therefore zero vinyls we can press unless we cut a new lacquer; it could happen that the father or some mother or some stamper has some defects and so the number of vinyls gradually goes to decrease. But I think that 100.000 is a good approximation.

    However: if we really can press about 500.000 vinyls, why for example regarding the UK Led Zeppelin albums or King Crimson UK albums we can see that the number of matrix increases in a short time? only an example: as you well know, the "pink Island label" (I'm talking about the first King Crimson album) was used in UK starting in the fall of 1969 until the autumn of 1970: well: we can find copies of this album that have the famous "pink label" and a trail-off with a B2 and B3 and B4 code: do you really think that this album sold a million and a half (B2 and B3 and B4 they are 3 lacquers: 500.000x3=1 million and a half) copies within a year only in the U.K.?

    We can argue all we want, but I think that only a person who actually works/worked in a pressing plant or a mastering engineer can help.
     
  10. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    Well: if you take a look at Rolling Stones (Decca) trails-off, you can see that the matrix numbers increased in a very short time: there are many "Let it bleed" original first UK pressings with "Decca unboxed label", for example, with matrix numbers equal to 5W or 6W (where the numbers 5 and 6 indicate the lacquer number and the letter W indicates that we have a copy mastered by Henry Fisher); as all we well know, the famous "Decca unboxed label" was used for about 2 or 3 months combined with "Let it Bleed": do you think that "Let it bleed" sold about 3 millions of copies within 3 months in UK? I think that Henry Fisher had to cut many and many lacquers because starting from one lacquer it's not possible press 500.000 copies.

    Is my opinion that the 3-step pressing process (starting from one lacquer) is very different from the DMM (Direct Metal Mastering) process (starting from a copper plate) where we can press many and many vinyls because the copper is a very durable material; the lacquer almost always, instead, is damaged when we plate it to generate the father and the father as well as the mothers and stampers are not indestructible: from a mother we can not generate all the stampers that we want.

    However, I repeat, only a person who works or worked in a pressing plant or a mastering-engineer can help; otherwise we can only discuss the vacuum (but I really thank all those who want to continue this discussion, of course!!).

    Stefano
     
  11. Dinstun

    Dinstun Forum Resident

    Location:
    Middle Tennessee
    I think your theory would be rather easy to prove because different masters could be differentiated visually, if not audibly. Just find two of the YEX 637-1 pressings that are different. Doesn't the inner groove on side 2 sound different on different masters?
     
  12. ronankeane

    ronankeane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    I didn't link this properly earlier:

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/a-question-about-vinyl-stampers.298642/#post-9039851

    Stefano, does that not convince you that the rule of 100,000 discs per lacquer did not apply back then?
     
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  13. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    I've collected records for many years, and only with the Beatles vinyls, I noticed that the matrix number remains the same for a period of many years and this thing seemed to me fairly unique; however, if Mr. Hoffman says that a stamper can be used to press 10,000 vinyls, i have no reason to doubt! (I do not speak English very well, as you might have noticed, but I seem to have realized that a stamper can press so many vinyls).

    As they say: "the case is closed!"
     
  14. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    please please do not get hung up on mother stamper numbers, it really doesn't matter too much unless you have 1 with a single letter, otherwise what difference does it make ? the most important thing imho are the labels, any Sgt Pepper with sold in uk text on it is good enough for me to regard as an original pressing, discounting the odd label variation for example the error label that omits a Day in the life....if you try to bring in mother stamper numbers into this you will just get your heads in a spin. Remember Beatles Lp's were pressed in huge numbers from many stampers at the same time, so a 1G which is the earliest possible mother stamper could have been pressed at the exact same time as say a 4RGM ...you see what i mean its pointless. For sure its nice to have a 1G 1R 1A etc ( i love them ) but all that tells you is that that disc was pressed from a very early stamper thats all !
     
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  15. Easy-E

    Easy-E Forum Resident

    Remember all those numbers are not there for collectors to verify pressing chronology they are just there for the bean counters to know how many were sold
     
  16. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    and don't forget that many stampers may have been stored and used at a later date, that would explain later labels with earlier stampers, it has already been pretty much proved thats what must have happened with the Love me do single.....
     
  17. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    Yes, it's true: a stamper may has been stored and used at a later date, but only if it's still usable! a stamper that has already pressed 5.000 or 7.000 or 10.000 vinyls, probably is totally consumed and a consumed stamper does not press a good vinyl; now, the pressing-plant Hayes-Middlesex (that pressed "Sgt. Pepper" and Pink Floyd albums) was famous for the good vinyls quality (do you think that the original UK "Sgt. Pepper" sounds bad? do you think that an original UK Pink Floyd album sounds bad?) and it's hard to believe that this pressing-plant used one stamper to press 5.000 or 10.000 vinyls (it's hard to believe, but it's not impossible!!).

    Now, is it not surprising that the number of lacquer on Beatles albums remains the same for a period of many years, and the number of lacquer on Pink Floyd albums gradually increases over time? is it not surprising that the number of lacquer on Beatles albums remains the same for a period of many years and the number of lacquer on Led Zeppelin albums, Rolling Stones albums, and all the other artists gradually increases over time? for my opinion, it's quite remarkable that Mr. Harry T. Moss cut only one lacquer for "Sgt. Pepper" and then he went on holiday (but maybe it happened so!).
     
  18. Easy-E

    Easy-E Forum Resident

    I think you might be comparing the numbering system used by say Columbia in the US and that of EMI in the UK. The Sgt Pepper in question, the -1 mono, the matrix does not change throughout its life as it (the -1) indicates the master/father (still made by Harry Moss incidentally) that the mothers were made from. So yes it is very possible to make 500,000 records or more from it using mothers made from that 1 father because thats what happened.

    After much discussion on a UK Beatles collecting forum the consensus was that about 3,000 LP's were pressed from a stamper. And the highest anyone could find as a triple digit one in the low hundreds, like 114 or so. So mother 1 made about 100 stampers which made about 300,000 records and Sgt Pepper goes up to 4 I think is the highest which gives you a million or so LP's potentially.

    Of course not all 4 mothers made 300,00 LP's each . The stereo matrices go higher as HTM remastered or redid the stereo father for a variety of reasons - overseas request, the solid state cut done on the Neumann lathe, the Australian red edition, the Nimbus super cut etc etc. All on the lid of the tape box on the MFSL sets.

    PF pressings followed this method too in the 60's and early 70's but after Meddle/DSOTM the mastering of those recordings was done multiple time hence multiple numbers.

    For example the A1/B1 DSOTM, the B1 has the skip on Money so it was done again hence B2 of side 2 and so on.

    Simpler numbering for the Beatles as that was what EMI did in the 60's and the PF numbers was what they did in the 70's.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  19. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    About 100 stampers generated from only one mother?? mmm...it could be a great record! who knows? maybe yes.
    I think that the "Sgt. Pepper" trail-off is much less simple: I repeat: my own copy has this dead-wax XEX 637-1 10 MAA (therefore 10th mother and 433th stamper); here:

    http://www.popsike.com/Beatles-1967-UK-Ist-Press-STEREO-Sgt-Pepper-LP/180197107343.html

    we have a copy with 3TGG on the trail-off (3th mother and 911th stamper!!) and I'm sure that we can find copies with many others "strange" combination of mother/stamper (I saw them); based on my opinion, a trail-off like 3TGG does not indicate that the 911th stamper was generated by the 3th mother: is much more likely that the number of the stamper was stamped on the trail-off in a progressive way but not connected to the sequence of the mother number.
     
  20. Easy-E

    Easy-E Forum Resident

    Oh yes sorry you did have those details. Then my 3,000 LP's per stamper is too high and perhaps only 300 were made per stamper. Who knos . One of the definite things we did decide on the UK forum was that EMI while fastidious in their pressings their ability to confuse and confuddle collectors 45 years later was unsurpassed!!

    Still your numbers are way higher than I can account for.

    Perhaps you could pose your question on the UK Beatles forum and see if they can come up with an explanation.

    http://z10.invisionfree.com/BeatlesCollecting/index.php
     
  21. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    Actually, your English is excellent! You are expressing yourself very clearly. :righton:
     
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  22. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    Oh no! :) I like Hoffman forum very much, because in the past, here I found many things that interest me; I love this forum! if people from the UK forum indicated by you like to come here, they're welcome!!
     
  23. Easy-E

    Easy-E Forum Resident

    They do but that UK forum is populatd by Beatles experts, leaders in the field. If they don't have an answer or opinion on you question then no-one will
     
  24. Easy-E

    Easy-E Forum Resident

    Its OK - Ive asked for you - lets see what they have to say.
     
  25. Stefano G.

    Stefano G. Ab alto, speres alteri quod feceris. Thread Starter

    I really think that a "Beatles expert" like me or you or others collectors, can't be able to answer: collectors can only make assumptions; only Harry T. Moss knows how many lacquers cut for "Sgt Peppers"!! perhaps only one....who knows?

    The most logical thing to think about is that for "Sgt Pepper" they at Hayes-Middlesex "forced their hand" and plated many more mothers and stampers than usual: perhaps not 30 mothers from the father, perhaps not 100 stampers from one mother, perhaps not 10.000 vinyls pressed by one stamper, but probably a number larger than usual.

    However, there still remains a strange thing that the lacquer number on "Sgt Pepper" trail-off remained the same for many years. Just try to find a similar thing for another artist (outside of Beatles).
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
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