Vinyl clicks and pops

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ZloyeZlo, Jul 27, 2014.

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  1. Hellenic_Vanagon

    Hellenic_Vanagon New Member

    Location:
    Greece
    But, for the moment at least, no clicks and pops, a digital feeling from vinyl records!

    (Plus, no stylus drag, no speed variation, no mat slipage.).
     
  2. ZloyeZlo

    ZloyeZlo New Member Thread Starter

    Thanks for the feedback. Definitely learned a ton about vinyl handling.
    Empty parts of the groove actually are virtually silent – the pops come in where the information is encoded. Anyway, thats my initial observation.
     
  3. dconsmack

    dconsmack Senior Member

    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV USA
    Your phono stage has 200pF capacitance at the input, and a typical capacitance for tonearm wire/RCAs would be 100-150pF, giving you a total of 300-350pF. That's about double what you should have (AT MM carts need 100-200pF total) so yes, the extra capictance is electrically adding even more audible treble to an already boosted treble response inherent in that cart. There's not much you can do to tame the treble. Most quality moving magnet cartridges currently being made need as little capacitance as possible. It's not really possible to get the tonearm wire/3' of RCA cable below 90pF, so having a phono stage with 0-50pF at the input is your best bet to get an Audio Technica cart to be ideal. A Shure M97xE needs 250pF and might be a good choice if your tonearm/RCA cables total 90-100pF. If they're greater than that, it might produce a rolled off treble response that would not sound so great.
     
  4. FrankieP

    FrankieP Forum Resident

    Used to live in Westbury and there was an abundance of mom & pop record shops that i would go to and never really mind the drive. That was 15 years ago though. I remember some nice small record shops over in Deer Park, Seaford, and Levittown. I sorely miss LI!!!
     
    Ntotrar likes this.
  5. Luckydog

    Luckydog Active Member

    Location:
    london, uk
    Yes, IME this can be effective. Because a common type of surface crackle/pop has origin in stylus-groove friction rather than dirt or damage, based on my own tests and simulations over a few years. Sometimes it seems 'normal' cleaning can make such noise worse, perhaps altering vinyl surface or removing lubricants? I have tried various elixirs to find the perfect treatment for records which otherwise show stubborn crackle/pop noise, and quite a few appear to work for me, including WD-40 I admit. As a rule I find measurable friction reduction, reduction in harmonic distortion, significant noise floor improvement - in some cases the best measured results I've ever obtained. And audible performance improvement overall can be profound I find.

    BUT I always remain concerned about longer term effects, and quite often stylus clogging depending on what agent. So I remain in hope that there is an agent which simply and naturally conditions a vinyl surface without residue (if that's not a contradiction in terms). Perhaps an agent already used in vinyl formulation and so where the risk profile appears naturally good. However, for records which are fried anyway I currently use a siloxane based lubricant with generally good results. I believe missan also has tested and had good results with certain siloxane based lubricants in the past?
     
  6. utahusker

    utahusker Senior Member

    Wow, WD40? I would never let that stuff near my records or turntable.

    I would think it would contaminate everything in it's path, including my ClearAudio record cleaner.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2014
    Ortofun likes this.
  7. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Hi Ld, yes I have tried several compounds in the past to reduce friction. For a couple of years now I use exclusively a siloxane based solution. I like it very much.
    No needle clogging, no negative aspect at all what I have found, only positive. The key is to rinse the record in rather warm water so the compound will be very thin, dry it carefully with a lint free cloth, and after that never touch the surface with anything, never use a brush.
    The compound is slightly antistatic so records will remain very clean.
     
  8. Shak Cohen

    Shak Cohen Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yes the 20 is a big improvement, the stylus is a finer quality, meaning it will go deeper into the groove, giving you a better detail vs noise ratio. It's probably as far as you can go with a belt drive TT such as this.

    Of course this is presuming you are playing good quality, clean pressings, and the tonearm is set correctly for the cartridge. Too light or too tight can exaggerate noise (and cause damage too). I always use a Deutsche Grammophon pressing of something simple, like piano solos or string quartets as a test disc to get this right.

    One more thing...the OMs need a lot of capacitance to sound right, about 300-400+pf really, otherwise they sound can sound quite compressed and boxy, which will bring the surface noise to the fore...you may want to try extending cable length from your TT to phono input/preamp to see if that helps too.
     
  9. Shak Cohen

    Shak Cohen Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yes but with a cartridge that has a really fine stylus on it, and is set up correctly, you are getting truckload of detail. The noise is always there, but a) music never existed in a vacuum, and b) the depth, richness, realism, transparency, clarity makes up for it a thousand times over.

    The AT440ml/a (or my AT13ea, which is basically an earlier incarnation of it) for example, can easily make CDs feel like they were cassettes or Mp3s, such is it's mastery.
     
    George Blair likes this.
  10. Shak Cohen

    Shak Cohen Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yes, that's right. 47pf/100pf is correct.
    You can get cheap but impressive Project or ART phono boxes with this exact spec, and away you go, you could modify those if they sound too bright...a few old integrated amps with phono stages by Sony and Harmon Kardon would be suitable too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2014
  11. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    This thread should be mandatory reading for any of those "I'm thinking about adding vinyl to my set-up, what should I consider?" thread starters.

    It should scare off the faint of heart.
     
    2xUeL likes this.
  12. ROLO46

    ROLO46 Forum Resident

    Music doesnt exist in a vacuum, the halls I listen and record in are full of noisy people, coughing and scraping their seats,dropping things and making a din in all the wrong places
    The Traffic can rumble by and sirens wail,the lights can buzz and the airco and refrigerators throb.
    However clicks ,pops and bangs,and growing distortions and rumbles from a turntable ,arm and pick up are far more annoying because they can be eliminated by the process of listening instead to a digital file, which has all the depth richness realism transparency and clarity of the original event
     
    gingerly and Schoolmaster Bones like this.
  13. Phono Groove

    Phono Groove Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec
    I don't mind pops and clicks if i'm listening to older soul / funk , blues or jazz music, to me it sounds normal as long as it doesn't get in the way of the listening experience. With more modern music I find it distracting and unatural , but that's just me...
     
  14. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    As rich in vinyl the West end of the Island was/is the East end is poor. I can't abide the traffic anymore so even the thought of visiting Nassau county makes me ill. I don't know where you live now but I can't get out of here fast enough. Perhaps another five years. In days gone by I could buy new records in the business districts of most of the larger villages here. Now it requires at least several hours in the car, in traffic with harried, harassed and un-happy Long Islanders. The East end is much more laid back. Its rural green and friendly out here. Except for pumpkin picking season; that gets insane!
     
  15. ivan_wemple

    ivan_wemple Senior Member

    I went with a twist on this recipe ...

    1. Clean the vinyl.
    2. Use a milty static gun.
    3. Return the vinyl
    4. Buy the CD version
     
    Schoolmaster Bones likes this.
  16. James_S888

    James_S888 Forum Resident

    What??
    and the miss the feel??
    No guts, no glory
    No pain, no gain

    More seriously, a CD just doesn't compare with the same thing on vinyl. What involves on vinyl is flat and lifeless on CD.
    SACD is very good, but vinyl still gets you the best sound.
     
    Shak Cohen likes this.
  17. ggergm

    ggergm another spring another baseball season

    Location:
    Minnesota
    This is such a generational thing.

    When it comes to most record noise, I simply oblivious. I don't hear a record's static, pops, scratches or snaps unless it is really bad, constant, or the record is defective.

    Growing up, I knew of nothing different. Music had noise mixed in. CDs still seem like a new technology to me.

    It's like the train that runs in front of my house a dozen or more times a day. It's so loud that if you are outside chatting with someone, you've got to stop talking while it passes. You can't continue a conversation. But if I'm inside, unless I'm watching TV or listening to music, I don't hear it.

    I don't expect records to be quiet. Those noises are part of the music's DNA.
     
  18. Shak Cohen

    Shak Cohen Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Sounds like a pretty lame, not properly functioning/set-up turntable/preamp vs a high-end digital set up (which is ultimately no great shakes in my book) to me. Hardly a fair comparison.
     
  19. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    Vinyl isn't for everybody.
     
    Ben Adams and TLMusic like this.
  20. ROLO46

    ROLO46 Forum Resident

    The only fab thing about vinyl pressings is the artwork, which can be compelling and almost dreamlike
    If only Sony /Phillips had used a cardboard sleeve for CD rather than the racketty 'jewel case'
    It could have been the size of a 7"EP and have excellent graphics and sleeve notes and it would have saved us all the brou haha of vinyl nostalgia and rip off prices.
     
    csgreene likes this.
  21. Shak Cohen

    Shak Cohen Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    zzzz..wake up buddy it's 2014, not 1994.

    Vinyl didn't get killed off, it's doing OK and more people are getting into it every day (hence the OP's question).

    These days it's the CD format that is fighting for survival...nothing especially wrong with jewel cases btw, easy to replace and protect the both the cards and disc:thumbsup:
     
    Ortofun likes this.
  22. ROLO46

    ROLO46 Forum Resident

    Im aware its 2014
    thats why clicks and pops are antidiluvian and CD was 80s not 90S.......
    Billions more cds get traded than vinyl
    The Digital File is superior though
     
  23. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    For you to claim that a digital file "has all the depth richness realism transparency and clarity of the original event" is as absurd as someone claiming vinyl has no surface noise.

    Perhaps a good recording can give the impression of an original live music event, but it isn't the original event. It's all an illusion, whether digital or analog.
     
    utahusker and kevintomb like this.
  24. George Blair

    George Blair Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    When I play a record that's clean and non-defective, I'm not listening to whatever noise is present - I'm only listening to the musical content. Of course this doesn't work with crap records, but that can be solved by not owning any.
     
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  25. Shak Cohen

    Shak Cohen Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    1. I quoted '94 because that was around the time of the 'Vinyl Is Dead' mantras, and the cacophony of subjective comments on it's supposed inferiority. I am glad those days are over...
    2. Billions are CDs are going for a penny on Amazon whereas vinyl keeps rising in vinyl, makes you glad you made a good investment, eh?
    3. FWIW as a music fan first and foremost (and someone without limitless funds), I would take a sweet and unbrickwalled CD from the early '90s going for a penny or so than a thin sounding, carelessly mastered record pressed on cheap, recycled vinyl from the same era. But when it's done well, even digital files can sound better on vinyl, note the recent exemplary reissue of Pink Floyd's The Division Bell, more openess and even detail than the original CD, and a very quiet pressing.
     
    VinyLen likes this.
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