SH Spotlight Vinyl collectors: What is the RIAA curve and why do you need it? See SH Post #7*

Michael P · Dec 23, 2016

Steve Hoffman said: ↑

Of course. On every electric record going back to the 1920s. Don't call it pre-emphasis. That's too confusing.
Click to expand...

I should rephrase my question, should I use the RIAA curve when playing these early 45's?

Or better yet, is what curves did RCA used on these early 45's?

Steve Hoffman · Dec 23, 2016

Michael P said: ↑

I should rephrase my question, should I use the RIAA curve when playing these early 45's?

Or better yet, is what curves did RCA used on these early 45's?
Click to expand...

You read my initial post, right? Yes, use RIAA. If you need to add a bit of midband use a parametric. Otherwise just enjoy. Those early 45's sound pretty bad no matter what curve you use. The 78s of that time sound so much better.

RiCat · Dec 23, 2016

Another ? for those in the know: If we could is there a better solution than the existing RIAA standard? Given today's technologies, materials and hardware would a different standard benefit playback? I surely see the issue of backward compatibility, this is a purely theoretical question.

Michael P · Dec 31, 2016

RiCat said: ↑

Another ? for those in the know: If we could is there a better solution than the existing RIAA standard? Given today's technologies, materials and hardware would a different standard benefit playback? I surely see the issue of backward compatibility, this is a purely theoretical question.
Click to expand...

It's been tried and failed miserably. Lookup DBX Encoded Discs for more on the subject.

Hermetech Mastering · Dec 31, 2016

Can bypass the RIAA in analogue and do it all in digital now too, lots of people find for restoration & repair it's best to do it before the playback RIAA curve,

yasujiro · Mar 20, 2018

In Japan, quite many people are beginning to believe these days that most record companies used their own eq curve well into the 70's. Just ridiculous.

yasujiro · Mar 26, 2018

yasujiro said: ↑

In Japan, quite many people are beginning to believe these days that most record companies used their own eq curve well into the 70's. Just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Google 翻訳

action pact · Feb 12, 2019

Were US-pressed London Records cut with a proprietary compensation curve?

I was just listening to the first two LPs by Them (mono pressings) and the top-end is really harsh on these LPs. My mono Stones LPs also have that nasty top-end boost.

Lemon Curry · Feb 12, 2019

Can we talk about a much simpler topic, like why cassette tapes need a bias signal ;-)

yasujiro · Feb 15, 2019

yasujiro said: ↑

In Japan, quite many people are beginning to believe these days that most record companies used their own eq curve well into the 70's. Just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

It is getting worse today.

Steve Hoffman · May 9, 2019

Steve Hoffman said: ↑

There is no such thing as a variable RIAA curve, there is only one RIAA curve. Your machine has pre-RIAA EQ curves on it, for playing records cut before the RIAA style curve became standard. People had large record collections in the early 1950s, mainly 78s and they needed to be played back on different curves. Why? I'll tell you!

First, the RIAA curve has been applied during the cutting of a record since only 1955 or so. This just means that the treble is boosted really a lot and the bass is reduced really a lot so the music can fit on the record. The curve is then applied in reverse at home by your phono preamplifier when you play back the record. The bass is restored and the treble is brought way down and with it, the surface noise (in theory).

Before the RIAA curve it was every company for itself. Each record label had a "secret" EQ curve that was applied to cuttings going back to 1925. Each did the same thing, basically. Reducing bass and boosting treble. But not in the same areas of the sonic spectrum. Sometimes each STUDIO that a label used had their own curve (Decca Records had three studios: LA, Chicago, NYC and each had a different curve in the 1930s and 40s, quite silly).

The idea was, each label thought their curve was the best compromise for good sound with the least amount of "scratch" as they called it, but for this industry wide system to work, the Columbia recordings had to be played back on a COLUMBIA phonograph, HMV or RCA-Victor recordings on a HMV or Victor machine, US Decca on a Decca machine, and so on. These machines had the same curve applied in reverse to the electronics and were the best at getting the most out of the (usually) lo fi gear sound of the time.

This of course went all to hell in the early 1950s when McIntosh and other companies with Hi Fidelity systems started to be sold, so these preamplifier designers of the era GUESSED at a curve for each of the labels and put the switching on the machines. A switch for Columbia records, for Decca, for RCA-Victor and on and on. Chaos. The Columbia Curve on a McIntosh didn't really match the Columbia curve on a different brand of preamplifier in the early 1950s. They were just guessing! This prompted the recording curve to be standardized and the RIAA curve was born, all labels agreed to use it for the good of the industry.

But the older records (even the records cut in 1954 and pressed into the 1960s) were not cut with the proper RIAA curve. So, what to do? Use an old preamp with alternative curves on it?

Here is the kicker. None of these alternate curves really sound good. The reason is that once off of the 1955 standard RIAA curve, everything sounds worse because the surface noise is usually increased. a 1935 speaker won't catch it but your modern speakers will.

So, what I do is leave it on RIAA, even for 1955 and older recordings, even 78s. If I want to alter the sound a bit I'll add some parametric EQ, usually a db or 2 around 35oo cycles with a Sontec slope of 6 to match the older curves. But once off of RIAA, forget it. So don't do it, don't even worry about it.

PLEASE NOTE:

The RIAA curve is NOT on the master tapes, it is just applied to the cutting of the lacquer. YOUR home phono preamp reverses the curve and the music sounds normal to you (hopefully). How WELL your home phono stage reproduces the RIAA curve (how exact) is CRUCIAL to good vinyl playback. Don't skimp on your phono stage, folks!
Click to expand...

To recap, bass eats up groove space so it is reduced during cutting (since 1925) via EQ and re-added during your playback via your RIAA circuit in your phono section. This curve, standardized in 1955 is NOT on the analog tapes, it is done during the cutting of the lacquers.

Steve Hoffman · Feb 2, 2021

Steve Hoffman said: ↑

There is no such thing as a variable RIAA curve, there is only one RIAA curve. Your machine has pre-RIAA EQ curves on it, for playing records cut before the RIAA style curve became standard. People had large record collections in the early 1950s, mainly 78s and they needed to be played back on different curves. Why? I'll tell you!

First, the RIAA curve has been applied during the cutting of a record since only 1955 or so. This just means that the treble is boosted really a lot and the bass is reduced really a lot so the music can fit on the record. The curve is then applied in reverse at home by your phono preamplifier when you play back the record. The bass is restored and the treble is brought way down and with it, the surface noise (in theory).

Before the RIAA curve it was every company for itself. Each record label had a "secret" EQ curve that was applied to cuttings going back to 1925. Each did the same thing, basically. Reducing bass and boosting treble. But not in the same areas of the sonic spectrum. Sometimes each STUDIO that a label used had their own curve (Decca Records had three studios: LA, Chicago, NYC and each had a different curve in the 1930s and 40s, quite silly).

The idea was, each label thought their curve was the best compromise for good sound with the least amount of "scratch" as they called it, but for this industry wide system to work, the Columbia recordings had to be played back on a COLUMBIA phonograph, HMV or RCA-Victor recordings on a HMV or Victor machine, US Decca on a Decca machine, and so on. These machines had the same curve applied in reverse to the electronics and were the best at getting the most out of the (usually) lo fi gear sound of the time.

This of course went all to hell in the early 1950s when McIntosh and other companies with Hi Fidelity systems started to be sold, so these preamplifier designers of the era GUESSED at a curve for each of the labels and put the switching on the machines. A switch for Columbia records, for Decca, for RCA-Victor and on and on. Chaos. The Columbia Curve on a McIntosh didn't really match the Columbia curve on a different brand of preamplifier in the early 1950s. They were just guessing! This prompted the recording curve to be standardized and the RIAA curve was born, all labels agreed to use it for the good of the industry.

But the older records (even the records cut in 1954 and pressed into the 1960s) were not cut with the proper RIAA curve. So, what to do? Use an old preamp with alternative curves on it?

Here is the kicker. None of these alternate curves really sound good. The reason is that once off of the 1955 standard RIAA curve, everything sounds worse because the surface noise is usually increased. a 1935 speaker won't catch it but your modern speakers will.

So, what I do is leave it on RIAA, even for 1955 and older recordings, even 78s. If I want to alter the sound a bit I'll add some parametric EQ, usually a db or 2 around 35oo cycles with a Sontec slope of 6 to match the older curves. But once off of RIAA, forget it. So don't do it, don't even worry about it.

PLEASE NOTE:

The RIAA curve is NOT on the master tapes, it is just applied to the cutting of the lacquer. YOUR home phono preamp reverses the curve and the music sounds normal to you (hopefully). How WELL your home phono stage reproduces the RIAA curve (how exact) is CRUCIAL to good vinyl playback. Don't skimp on your phono stage, folks!
Click to expand...

This!

yasujiro · Feb 2, 2021

Steve Hoffman said: ↑

There is no such thing as a variable RIAA curve, there is only one RIAA curve. Your machine has pre-RIAA EQ curves on it, for playing records cut before the RIAA style curve became standard. People had large record collections in the early 1950s, mainly 78s and they needed to be played back on different curves. Why? I'll tell you!

First, the RIAA curve has been applied during the cutting of a record since only 1955 or so. This just means that the treble is boosted really a lot and the bass is reduced really a lot so the music can fit on the record. The curve is then applied in reverse at home by your phono preamplifier when you play back the record. The bass is restored and the treble is brought way down and with it, the surface noise (in theory).

Before the RIAA curve it was every company for itself. Each record label had a "secret" EQ curve that was applied to cuttings going back to 1925. Each did the same thing, basically. Reducing bass and boosting treble. But not in the same areas of the sonic spectrum. Sometimes each STUDIO that a label used had their own curve (Decca Records had three studios: LA, Chicago, NYC and each had a different curve in the 1930s and 40s, quite silly).

The idea was, each label thought their curve was the best compromise for good sound with the least amount of "scratch" as they called it, but for this industry wide system to work, the Columbia recordings had to be played back on a COLUMBIA phonograph, HMV or RCA-Victor recordings on a HMV or Victor machine, US Decca on a Decca machine, and so on. These machines had the same curve applied in reverse to the electronics and were the best at getting the most out of the (usually) lo fi gear sound of the time.

This of course went all to hell in the early 1950s when McIntosh and other companies with Hi Fidelity systems started to be sold, so these preamplifier designers of the era GUESSED at a curve for each of the labels and put the switching on the machines. A switch for Columbia records, for Decca, for RCA-Victor and on and on. Chaos. The Columbia Curve on a McIntosh didn't really match the Columbia curve on a different brand of preamplifier in the early 1950s. They were just guessing! This prompted the recording curve to be standardized and the RIAA curve was born, all labels agreed to use it for the good of the industry.

But the older records (even the records cut in 1954 and pressed into the 1960s) were not cut with the proper RIAA curve. So, what to do? Use an old preamp with alternative curves on it?

Here is the kicker. None of these alternate curves really sound good. The reason is that once off of the 1955 standard RIAA curve, everything sounds worse because the surface noise is usually increased. a 1935 speaker won't catch it but your modern speakers will.

So, what I do is leave it on RIAA, even for 1955 and older recordings, even 78s. If I want to alter the sound a bit I'll add some parametric EQ, usually a db or 2 around 35oo cycles with a Sontec slope of 6 to match the older curves. But once off of RIAA, forget it. So don't do it, don't even worry about it.

PLEASE NOTE:

The RIAA curve is NOT on the master tapes, it is just applied to the cutting of the lacquer. YOUR home phono preamp reverses the curve and the music sounds normal to you (hopefully). How WELL your home phono stage reproduces the RIAA curve (how exact) is CRUCIAL to good vinyl playback. Don't skimp on your phono stage, folks!
Click to expand...

Great post! Could you please elaborate the sentence?

But the older records (even the records cut in 1954 and pressed into the 1960s) were not cut with the proper RIAA curve.
Click to expand...

yasujiro · Feb 2, 2021

yasujiro said: ↑

Great post! Could you please elaborate the sentence?
Click to expand...

Solved. (I just red it wrong.)

dasacco · Jan 30, 2022

Tonight I'm listening to this box set of Norman Granz Jazz At The Philharmonic, Volume 15. Based on the Discogs listing it's from 1953.

It's got lots of treble and no bass. My phono preamp (Graham Slee Accession) gives me the option of shutting off the RIAA EQ, so I switched it off. I can't say it now sounds great, but it is a heck of a lot better. Is it possible this box set pre-dates the RIAA curve standardazation? If so it might be the only one in my collection.

BradOlson · Jan 30, 2022

dasacco said: ↑

Tonight I'm listening to this box set of Norman Granz Jazz At The Philharmonic, Volume 15. Based on the Discogs listing it's from 1953.

It's got lots of treble and no bass. My phono preamp (Graham Slee Accession) gives me the option of shutting off the RIAA EQ, so I switched it off. I can't say it now sounds great, but it is a heck of a lot better. Is it possible this box set pre-dates the RIAA curve standardization? If so it might be the only one in my collection.
Click to expand...

Yes it does pre-date the RIAA curve standardization.

Steve Hoffman · Jul 22, 2023

Steve Hoffman said: ↑

There is no such thing as a variable RIAA curve, there is only one RIAA curve. Your machine has pre-RIAA EQ curves on it, for playing records cut before the RIAA style curve became standard. People had large record collections in the early 1950s, mainly 78s and they needed to be played back on different curves. Why? I'll tell you!

First, the RIAA curve has been applied during the cutting of a record since only 1955 or so. This just means that the treble is boosted really a lot and the bass is reduced really a lot so the music can fit on the record. The curve is then applied in reverse at home by your phono preamplifier when you play back the record. The bass is restored and the treble is brought way down and with it, the surface noise (in theory).

Before the RIAA curve it was every company for itself. Each record label had a "secret" EQ curve that was applied to cuttings going back to 1925. Each did the same thing, basically. Reducing bass and boosting treble. But not in the same areas of the sonic spectrum. Sometimes each STUDIO that a label used had their own curve (Decca Records had three studios: LA, Chicago, NYC and each had a different curve in the 1930s and 40s, quite silly).

The idea was, each label thought their curve was the best compromise for good sound with the least amount of "scratch" as they called it, but for this industry wide system to work, the Columbia recordings had to be played back on a COLUMBIA phonograph, HMV or RCA-Victor recordings on a HMV or Victor machine, US Decca on a Decca machine, and so on. These machines had the same curve applied in reverse to the electronics and were the best at getting the most out of the (usually) lo fi gear sound of the time.

This of course went all to hell in the early 1950s when McIntosh and other companies with Hi Fidelity systems started to be sold, so these preamplifier designers of the era GUESSED at a curve for each of the labels and put the switching on the machines. A switch for Columbia records, for Decca, for RCA-Victor and on and on. Chaos. The Columbia Curve on a McIntosh didn't really match the Columbia curve on a different brand of preamplifier in the early 1950s. They were just guessing! This prompted the recording curve to be standardized and the RIAA curve was born, all labels agreed to use it for the good of the industry.

But the older records (even the records cut in 1954 and pressed into the 1960s) were not cut with the proper RIAA curve. So, what to do? Use an old preamp with alternative curves on it?

Here is the kicker. None of these alternate curves really sound good. The reason is that once off of the 1955 standard RIAA curve, everything sounds worse because the surface noise is usually increased. a 1935 speaker won't catch it but your modern speakers will.

So, what I do is leave it on RIAA, even for 1955 and older recordings, even 78s. If I want to alter the sound a bit I'll add some parametric EQ, usually a db or 2 around 35oo cycles with a Sontec slope of 6 to match the older curves. But once off of RIAA, forget it. So don't do it, don't even worry about it.

PLEASE NOTE:

The RIAA curve is NOT on the master tapes, it is just applied to the cutting of the lacquer. YOUR home phono preamp reverses the curve and the music sounds normal to you (hopefully). How WELL your home phono stage reproduces the RIAA curve (how exact) is CRUCIAL to good vinyl playback. Don't skimp on your phono stage, folks!
Click to expand...

What brought this thread back from the dead?

Hermetech Mastering · Jul 23, 2023

Steve Hoffman said: ↑

What brought this thread back from the dead?
Click to expand...

You?

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