Vinyl pre-track "ghosting" question

Hello,

I have become quite a vinyl hound lately and have been getting as much sealed and clean used vinyl as I can lately- no interest in CD's! The sound can be (and usually is) so much more alive than a CD of the same music.
But, I have noticed that it seems about half of the LP's that I play have pre-track "ghosting"- where you can hear the beginning of the next song quiety begin, just before it really begins. It doesn't bug me too much, but it is kind of disconcerting- I've noticed it on everything from Supertramp's "famous last words" to Sgt. Barry Sadler's "Ballad Of The Green Berets".

Is this normal? Or is my turntable improperly set up? Bad pressings??? Help!!

James

 

This used to make me nuts when I bought vinyl a LOT. Pre-groove echo was usually the term I saw applied to this and it happened from time to time. I'm not sure if it was caused by somebody setting the cutting lathe too close to the adjacent groove or why they'd let these kinds of errors get out the door. Steve?

 

I noticed this today...even on a brand new Classic Records pressing. Improper setup on my part...or poor vinyl cutting/pressing...or nothing to worry about?

 

don't worry about it
it's probably on almost every record
I used to use this for cueing records back in my radio days

search the NET (since SH search is off for now) for print through and pre echo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through
Print-through (sometimes referred to as bleed-through) is a generally undesirable effect that arises in the use of magnetic tape for storing analogue information, in particular music.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-81260.html

 

Yeah but why so much more on vinyl. You think you would hear the same thing from any CD that was mastered from analogue tape. Unless they edit out on the CD mastering.

Now I would think there is print-through throughout the whole song it's just covered up by the loud passages.

 

If I understand the process correctly with vinyl, the echo occurs when the cutting lathe's movement causes a microscopic deformation of the adjacent groove as it makes a large movement during the loudest passages. This would only be audible when the grooves are cut too close together which would allow the movement happening in one groove to be "transmitted" across into the next groove. Print-through would, as you surmise, be there all the time but would only be audible during quiet passages....but I could be all wrong on this.

 

We had a thread about this recently. Look here.

I used to get this all the time with my turntable in the 80's. With my current set up, I have not once heard it.

 

Good thread. However, it came to the conclusion that this ghosting was all in the production end. And you seem to imply it was yout turntable's fault. Perhaps it was improper alignment that magnified this? Maybe the stylus was sitting more on the inner groove and you could hear it much better? I cant possibly see how it would disappear ...once its on the vinyl, its there for good.

 

I think it's a bit of both. I have a properly set up TT now, but it's also true (according to that thread) that in the late 70's and early 80's there were a number or records that suffered from ghosting.

 

I should add that most of my LP's now were pressed recently or in the 50's and 60's.

 

I've found that the more precisely I dial in azimuth, the less the pre-echo is audible. It's so quiet now that I would have to crank the volume up considerably for it to be any kind of a problem. Also, it seems some styli deal with this problem better than others, possibly because not every portion of the groove wall is affected equally. My Audio-Technica 440ML does very well in handling this.

 

2002 is recent?

Wow, you're right, it does seem to be related to the turntable! Or, as you point out, perhaps if one's turntable isn't carefully set up the problem is more easily exposed. I just checked my Beatles "Twist And Shout" vinyl (late 1970s-early 1980s pressing) and with my Clearaudio turntable I no longer hear the ghosting I used to hear with my old Kenwood & Harmon Kardon turntables, at least not to the extent I used to. I still heard a bit before "She Loves You" came on, but it was just an indecipherable blip, whereas before you could hear "she loves...she loves..." before the song began.

 

As posted, groove echo in vinyl is primarily due to plastic flow of the lacquer on the master disk during the cutting process. The problem can be exacerbated by heating during the plating process, which may explain the variation in groove echo for different pressings of the same record. The AES journal has several articles fron the 1980's (and probably earlier) on groove-echo distortion.

 

I used to have an early 80's Parlophone copy of The Beatles- A Collection Of Beatles Oldies But Goodies that did this really bad, probably the worst record I've heard with this effect. It has long since disapeared. probably stolen along with a bunch of CD's and stereo equipment back in 1990.

 

Maybe I'm deaf or my TT, a Kenwood 750, is setup right. Could be the former though

 

I always thought I heard that on Zeps 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You"

I could hear a preview of the loud "I can hear it calling me back home" during the quiet "I can hear it calling me the way it used to"

 

I seem to recall hearing this on every pressing I've ever heard. Perhaps this one is tape print-through rather than groove pre-echo?

 

even on cd? I'll have to listen tonite

 

Good question. That would certainly settle it. I only have the box CDs and I can't remember the last time I listened to them.

 

also on whole lotta love, "way down inside...", or perhaps this is intentional (been years since i heard it)

 

I think this was tape print through as well, because I've heard it on every CD version. I kindof like it actually.

 

No, that effect was deliberately created, according to the Led Zep Twilight of the Gods biography. Historians are divided on exactly how this memorable effect was created; some feel it was caused by a speaker accidentally being left open in the studio, playing back a guide vocal of the track while Robert Plant sang it again, while others insist it was a deliberate effect, mixed in after-the-fact. But it definitely wasn't tape print-through.

The term I always heard from mastering engineers about echo prior to the start of the song on a vinyl LP was "pre-echo," caused by loud signals (particularly bass) on adjacent grooves. I think you can minimize it to a degree by good tonearm setup, but most of it is built-in to the pressing.

--MFW

 

That was intentional. Long story, but it's basically post-echo added as the tape was run backwards, IIRC.

EDIT: OOOPS. Didn't see MarcW's post. Nice moniker BTW, MarcW...

 

thanks. i think on "babe im gonna leave you" it might be intentional too. i seem to remember hearing parts sung by robert in the distance which werent the same as the main vocal track, hence they werent print through. i bet they are audible on cds as well as vinyl.