Vinyl Rippers: How has 30 years of CD listening affected how we hear our vinyl?

Pink noise drops 6dB per octave, so what you should see is a steady downward slope. Trust me, the cart's response is not down 12dB at 10kHz, no one would be able to listen to it if that were the case. I don't have any white noise to record, which would be more useful. But what this is actually showing you is a cart that is relatively flat out to 10kHz, and has a slight lift after 10kHz (notice how the downward slope flattens out a bit).

There's probably some way to normalize pink noise results to show you how it deviates from flat response, which would be more illustrative, but I don't know how to do it.

 

Oh—you mean the old "Same" place . . .

I go nuts looking for 'the perfect sound' but as we can't get there from here* it doesn't trouble me more now than it ever did. The pursuit of 'perfect sound' always has been and always will be an obsession quest, focused on nuances that most 'normal' folks ignore. I am happier with the vinyl to digital transfers right now than ever, in large part because by turntable is finally set up properly. It not just having the 'stuff', it's knowing how to use it as well. I am also happier with the sound I'm getting off of CDs and other digital formats. I suspect that the baseline of the sort of music I used to record—mostly classical, none of it running through a PA—tuned my ears to different timbres and reverb patterns than those exposed to a greater percentage of amplified music. We continue to move in the direction of better sound for those willing and able to take the plunge. For those with the means, Analog and Digital are converging as regards sound quality, becoming more alike sonically.


*even if we are still looking for 'the same old place'

 

Tonally, a record and a CD should sound almost the same, IF the mastering was done the same.

Where things deviate, is a myriad of stuff from the cart, the phono stage and sometimes resultant changes made to vinyl to compensate or get around limitations on how vinyl is played back etc.

Music put onto vinyl is done "out of phase" and with up to a 20db treble boost, and a 20 db bass cut, and then when played back the phase is re-inverted and the bass boosted up to 20db and the treble cut up to 20db. With the response variations of most carts, and how the channel separation changes over the sound spectrum, combined with those phase changes, some mild to moderate artifacts are introduced into the playback sound, that at times are pleasant and create wider spatial cues.

 

Ain't no such thing as "Perfect Sound Forever"

Or the tone color of the digital device or the potential influence of interconnects, distortion from old gear being overdriven by the hotter signal coming from a CD player . . .

The CD side of the equation can go out of spec just as easily as the LP side of the equation.

 

You are correct about it not being perfect either, but to me its other issues, more to do with low level resolution and ambiance.

Im not so sure id say it goes out of spec as easy. I think the CD format if "anything" is fairly consistent overall. Not perfect at all, but its much more "repeatable" as far as sounding similar in most players.

 

Cause then you have a near perfect recreation of listening to the vinyl itself

 

Sure you are. You're an audiophile because you enjoy your system to have a certain coloration to it. People who aren't audiophiles couldn't care less about EQ and are easily pleased with listening to music on anything.

 

* Maria Muldaur—"Sweet Harmony"

Or you need to make a copy of We Just Couldn't Say Goodbye* for your sister's wedding.

 

Well, look at this way. Say you stepped away from vinyl for a decade, and had switched to CDs and mp3s of CDs.

You step back to vinyl and decide to start ripping.

Except now your ears have been trained to hear brighter highs throughout a recording. And when you make your needledrops, they never seem to sound quite right. . . .

The worst example in my own collection is the Cabaret Voltaire record Code. I've got it on CD, but when I began collecting LPs again, I grabbed the LP. The CD is significantly brighter than the LP. I had to use the standard treble boost in Audacity's Equalization effect to get the LP to match the CD.



That's not OK. But I'd gotten used to hearing this recording in its bright CD mastering, and it took me a while to be able to accept that the LP is probably a much better representation of what the artists intended. I'm having to de-train my ears because they've gotten used to the artificial sweetness of CDs. And my gosh, I was always a vinyl guy prior to 2001. I used to own 3,000 LPs and managed record shops. I should know better.

So this is what I'm talking about.

 

Nagaoka MP-110 for you, correct? I used to say this was a neutral cart, but now I'm not so sure - it could actually be a bit mid-heavy.

Is there really any way to objectively know versus just using our ears as a guide? I know the AT440Mla is bright as I can hear that and others have stated the same. But the MP-110 is hard to place. for me - definitely not bright, however. I also have a Grado Green and it's starting to replace my MP-110 for LPs that are too noisy on the 440 -- that one might actually be more neutral than the MP-110.

And there's the problem, btw - all carts are different. but would a laser pickup on a certain CD player really make as much of a difference in colorizing the sound of a CD? I don't know.

 

I maintain that if the experience (i.e. the totality of the recording + system + room + your mood etc.) is more life-like (for lack of better descriptor) it'll ultimately be more pleasing and you'll be able to point to the why: smoother, silkier, airier highs, cleaner mids and so on.

That stuff will either be there or it won't, regardless of medium or format. The only people who "like" bad sound are those that haven't been exposed to better.

I started with records but you could say I first got used to what sufficient highs sounded like with CDs, because my analog front end sucked. But once I heard better it wasn't as if I still pined for CDs. They were eventually revealed to be wrong.

 

If you think your cart is coloring the sound, get a test LP (like the Stereo Review one) and make a capture of the white noise portion.

Then check the capture file's frequency response using an app (like Adobe's Frequency Analysis). I did this with all my turntables/carts, and it was very helpful in getting a clear idea of which cart to use depending on the record I was digitizing.

 

If you like the way the CDs sound better than the LPs, why are you trying to "fix" your LPs so they sound like CDs? Why not just stick with the CDs, which you seem to prefer?

As someone who never abandoned LPs for CDs or MP3s, I have to say none of what you are saying makes any sense to me. I do needledrops so I can take the sound of LPs (which I happen to like) on the go, not so I can screw them up in Audacity to try to make them sound like CDs.

If you prefer the sound of CDs, stick with them. Vinyl is a PITA, and not for everyone.

 

Im obviously not him, but I "think" hes saying he likes some aspects of Vinyl, but not all. After listening to CD for a while, hes found "shortcomings" in how the treble sounds on his vinyl. It could be mastering or the playback chain.

He wants to get that aspect of his vinyl sound to match his CD sound of the titles hes mentioned, while still retaining the vinyl "sound" he likes.

I could be totally wrong also.....

I think if most were completely honest, we would all say there are aspects of both formats that are at times appealing. Both have faults and both have good points. To me, there is no "Better" per se, but simply various trade-offs.

 

Hey Roebeet, this would have been with the M97xE, actually.

I think at this point the flaw in my own system is my preamp, which is constricting the music somewhat. I'm using an ART DJPre II external instead of the internal amp in my AT-LP120. The internal amp is definitely less constricted, but it doesn't like the low volumes that the M97xE and MP-110 give it, and it literally cuts out once sound on the LP drops below a certain threshold. It just gives pure flatline silence until the noise threshold picks up again. Not cool. So I got the ART DJPre II based on some reviews, but I should have figured that a sub-$50 preamp would wind up being a weak link. It's just too dark and constricted.

I'm going to upgrade to a Cambridge 640P, which is supposed to be wide, open, and possibly lean a little towards brightness. I think it should pull the best out of these particular carts. It's definitely a better use of my next free $180 than getting the Jico stylus for my M97xE (though that's remaining on my list).

That's an excellent idea. I'll do it once I have a better preamp.

Argh! Trust me, I'm not trying to match the CDs! There's another member here who recently started doing needledrops but he got frustrated and said he was going to quit. As a result I thought this might be an interesting dialogue to open, and the easiest way to do that was outline some of my own (slight) frustration.

 

Okay, sorry if I didn't get it. I think part of what is going on here is that in doing needledrops your are noticing shortcomings in your vinyl playback chain. (I'm not dissing your equipment, I went through the same thing). When you just put a record on and play it, you probably don't notice certain flaws, whether they are frequency response related or otherwise. But needledroping with the ability to go back and listen to certain sections and easily compare to other recordings is like looking at your vinyl playback under a microscope, and sometimes the close-up picture isn't entirely pretty.

So in that respect I think I can see where you are coming from. I ended up abandoning the cart I was using, in part because after doing a number of needledrops it became more and more clear to me that it sounded wrong (the frequency response was wonky and there were some IGD issues). So I tried something else, and then something else. I also addressed a few vibrational and speed issues so that now I am not only happy with the way my needledrops sound, but I am much happier with the quality of vinyl playback in my system overall.

I would caution you against comparing frequency response of your needledrops directly to commercially available CDs unless you know for a fact they were mastered exactly the same. I've found a a good tester is Tom Petty's Mojo. The LP was cut directly from the 48kHz/24bit that comes with the LP as a free download, so in that case at least you can make a fair assessment of where your LP playback chain is deviating from neutral. Otherwise comparing the sound of your needledrops to CD is as likely to lead you astray as not.

So I would think your choices are to either; A) accept that your vinyl playback system has some limitations (and by extension your needledrops will too) and live with it; B) work to upgrade your vinyl playback chain to get things "right"; C) mess around with EQ, etc in Audacity (you might consider upgrading that as well) until you find a workflow that creates files you are satisfied with; D) all or some of the above; or finally, E) give up.

None of those are necessarily the right or wrong choice, but there is no doubt it can be frustrating, and you might find it continues to be so, even after spending a lot of money on upgrades. Vinyl is a cruel mistress in many ways, but the good news is that investment of time, energy and money usually pays dividends.

 

This is what happened to me, as well - I had some LPs that just didn't sound "right" to me versus the CD, in my early needledrops. They ended up getting shelved, but after I purchased my AT440Mla (and now this Grado Green cart) they ended up being my go-to copies.

I play it by "ear", quite literally. But in my setup my LP's usually end up being brighter than the comparable CD, so I have the exact opposite experience. I just dropped Side A of "Mike & The Mechanics" S/T LP today and I had to pull out the AT440MLa as it was actually too bright, in this case. Three headshells and my tracking force cheat sheet are a big help with doing a quick compare to decide which is best for each LP I drop.

Also I use headphones for monitoring, and in my cases it's HD600's which I believe are fairly neutral. That's another factor to take into consideraton.

 

The premise of this thread is not crazy, as some of the testimonies from the congregation can attest. I struggle with the sensation that some non-EQ'd needledrops sound a little dull and muddy, especially at low volume. And this from someone who routinely recorded my vinyl to Dolby-off cassettes for many years and thought they sounded nearly perfect...

 

Again, I think it goes back to the cart. What cart did you use when you taped your records? I submit that some of those needledrops you describe as "dull" or "muddy" were made with flatter carts.

I spent some time last night reading a bunch of reviews about the Ortofon 2M series carts, all four of them: the red, the blue, the bronze, and the black. The one common trait found in all but, surprisingly, the red, which is the budget model, was the rise in the treble, starting at around 1,000 kHz>, with a bump at around 10,000kHz. The reviews I read mentioned that the treble boost in MM carts seems to be a trend in cart designs these days. Add that to the popularity of the Audio Technica carts, which also demonstrate this trend with the usual 47k loading.

Sometimes I wonder if the new popularity in boosted treble is from experience with the CD, or or hearing loss, made worse with increased exposure to increased environmental noise and the use of ear-buds and head0phones. Whatever happened to the quest for flat frequency response?

 

I always thought that some of the poo-pooing of digital (claiming shrill highs and even mids) came from individuals who had reverse-engineered their systems to exaggerate the treble energy of their vinyl collection, even as the cartridge wound its way to the run-out groove.

So they encountered a source for which treble is a strength, and unsurprisingly the magnifying glass of a system they'd assembled to extract every ounce of high frequency from their LPs sounded shrill and glassy: "CD is terrible! It's too bright!"

 

Yeah. What Ron said.

 

I think a lot of older folks who have been used to listening to bright CDs over the past decades like the sound of bright CDs because their upper frequency hearing is gone. Plus many TT carts sound way warmer than they should.

I thought the AT440mla was a neutral cartridge? (Never heard it or looked at specs). Am I wrong?

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. That's why neutral cartridges and a good phono stage are very important.

 

Yup.

 

Depends what you mean by "neutral." If you consider +6dB at 11kHz neutral, then the answer is "yes." I'd call it bright, but all carts deviate from neutral in some respect. [Image from http://www.milleraudioresearch.com]