Vinyl weight sonic differences?

Can you actually hear the sonic differences between 200, 180, 140 gram records? (Er...um...what is the weight of a standard, non-audiophile LP anyway?)
I have examples of each of the weights but not duplicates of a particular album in different weights. When presented with different weights of the same album I usually chose the heaviest as sonic insurance but still wonder how much more I'm getting. Depends on how high up the food chain your gear is or noticeable even on modest gear?

 

This is a voodoo-science question, IMO. Myself, I think anything over 140 grams can be counter productive. Thicker records when warped are warped higher, bad-ddd! I only buy 180 + gram records if they're offered no other way and I want them really badly. I think heavy records are just an excuse to charge considerably more. I see no sonic benefits.

 

I'm suprised that hadn't already occured to me. Thanks Rachael.

I can only think of a possible lessened resonance factor playing a positive role with the thicker vinyl.

 

Theorically heavy weigh vinyl allow deeper grooves and so more dynamics. This can only be assumed as a rule of thumb. Using different discs create VTA problems that infuence playing. However many light vinyls are killer (older mofi) and many 200 Classics sound crappy (only sure to pay them more).

 

Fair enough. The original question came to my mind when intending to purchase Wilco's 'Being There' and seeing both a 180 gram and much lesser priced version without a mentioned weight, the standard weight I assume (whatever that is).

 

The difference between 180 gram and 200 gram of vinyl, IMO, is a marketing thing. I can't believe that 20 grams would make that much of a difference. But, that's just me!

 

According to those near the pressing and plating business and process ( our own Mr. Hoffman for example ) it is extremely difficult to press a quiet surfaced 200 gram LP. It gets difficult somewhere in the stamping procedure, not sure exactly what physics are involved. This explained to me what happened when Classic Records switch to the 200 gram formula and all the pressings I was buying were all of a sudden containing more noise than a dirty used record. I no longer buy from Classic and I constanly read complaints on this site about them. This has been two years ago for me. I bought a mint promo copy of Peter Gabriel's So album for $5 that was dead quiet. For $35 and how many returns would you get the Classic issue in this condition. Anyway, I have learned a lot about re-issues on this very site and thank you everyone and all for your thoughts!! It's how we learn things!!!

 

I thought shorter records with wider grooves was what helped sonics. That's certainly been my experience with 12" singles. I'm doubting that record groove deapth is much, if any, different for super-sized records...? Anybody know for sure...?

 

I wouldn't think so either, but that's just me too.

 

speaking about 180 grams....

from www.recordtech.com RTI site:

HQ-180

The High Quality 180 gram premium format offers a significant improvement in the sound of your recordings. The HQ-180 is 50% heavier with 50% more mass, providing a more substantial platform for the phono pick-up system. The result is a more stable, focused image with tighter, deeper bass, crisp transient attack and improved channel separation.

The HQ-180 is not only thicker and heavier, the new technology used to press the HQ-180 yields an even quieter surface, providing reduced noise and distortion components throughout the entire audio spectrum.

 

It's quite the shame that what they procalim and what the actual finished product turns out to be are vastly different!! 180 gram, sure why not but 200 gram is just silly in my opinion.

 

I have copies of Classic's Led Zep II and IV in both 180g and 200g, with the same mastering. (I bought the 180gs when they came out, and ended up with the duplicate titles when I later bought the Classic 200g box). The dynamics on the 200g is slightly better, and the bass on the 200g seems slightly tighter on some tracks. No big deal, and certainly not enough of a difference to justify the well-documented quality control issues. BTW, the 45rpm test pressing of Stairway to Heaven on 180g that comes with the box set smokes the versions on the 180g and 200g Zep IV lps.

I also have the Classic 180g Crosby, Stills & Nash. I received the 200g 45rpm single-sided version as a gift (yes, 45 rpm single sided is 5 discs). Each disc is perfect and it smokes the 180g. In fact, IMO it is one of the best recorded rock records ever.

I think the key here is the 45rpm rather than the thickness, however.

Also, if you're not adjusting for VTA for the thicker discs, don't even consider buying them.

 

A record groove is smaller than a human hair in general; thickness of the disk isn't an issue. It's not really possible to cut a larger/deeper groove, because material has to be removed from the lacquer surface and that takes power. Exceeding the physical limits of the cutter is not on (either you trash the cutter by breaking it, or it lifts out of the lacquer giving you no groove). Remember when doing stereo your cutter and stylus are bounding around in two directions.

12in singles and 'supercut' records often have less playing time and are louder - in the case of 12in singles this generally limits the stereo (especially in the bass) and space the groove turns further apart preventing a nasty echo effect as the groove wall pushes the previous groove away... larger groove movement generally results in more distortion, too, but pacing things out and making the bass more mono gives the cutter more 'wiggle room' before hitting problems.

Basically the lot of a record cutting engineer is one of careful compromise. Astounding things can be done, but aren't possible all the time...

 

That seems to work with turntable platters.

HEY! You're killing me! Stop it already.

Seriously though, the logic behind making this StH so inaccessible is beyond me. Wouldn't there be more money made by offering this as a stand alone product for something like $20 a pop? Why not 10 beloved Zep songs as 45rpm singles for $200? Why not the whole catalogue?

I'd think music lovers would prefer 180g 45rpm versions of their favorite recordings? Why the rarity?

 

I have lots of 200g discs, most of them sound really good, and I never adjust VTA to accomodate them. The difference in thickness between a 200g and 180g record is not that great.

 

True, but the difference between a 110~140g (standard) pressing and a 180~200g is double the thickness! I measured them, 110~140g (.042), 180g (.084), 200g (.088).

 

A few companies, such as Classic Records, among others, are releasing "heavy weight" and "regular weight" editions of some of their records. In some cases there is little price difference, in others it's a saving of 1/3 to buy the "regular weight" editions.

I'd like to know the following:
Do "heavy" records actually sound any better if pressed from the same stamper as the "regular"? (I'm assuming that if both editions are released simultaneously then they would be from the same stamper) I know "heavy" records are less prone to warping, but do they also last longer with repeated playing compared to "regular"? Are there any other pros or cons that I might not know about?

Although I am not new to records, and I am not new to knowing what an "audiophile edition" is, I am still new to the concepts behind all this weight of the vinyl business. Please enlighten me! Let the arguments begin!

 

I've never found heavier records to sound better. When given the choice I'll take the lighter record for less money. if anything, I've had more problems with 200 gram pressings than any other.

 

I would think that cutting the record would be different depending on how much vinyl is used. It would seem that a heavier record could handle deeper grooves.

 

I don't think it works that way. I may be wrong, though.

 

Personally, I don't think weight plays a large role. I've got great sounding standard and regular vinyl. I do find weighty vinyl has a deluxe feel to itand usually buy the 200 gram version of Classic Records releases. But I happily bought the 150 gram version of Stadium Arcadium. With this releae, Steve has maintained that the 150 and 180 gram versions sound the same.

Michael Fremer did an interesting article on musicangle.com on this issue. He said he finds 200 gram vinyl bests 180 gram vinyl using the same stampers.

http://www.musicangle.com/feat.php?id=104

 

did he do a blind test?

 

I don't care too much for the weight of the vinyl either. Some of the best sounding records I have are on fairly lightweight vinyl.

The 200grm classic reissues have more factors than just weight involved. They don't have a raised groove and possibly label area??? So they should sit better on your platter. Considering teh amount of issues people have had with their 200grm reissues you might be better off sticking with standard weight.

 

I've just bought a new LP copy of "Tonight's The Night" by Neil Young. The record is very light weight and, much to my dismay but not to my suprise, it has a small warp. I don't know if it will play as my record player needs a new needle (through standard useage) so I gotta decide: Play and risk damage but find out if the warp affects play (I can return it for a replacement) or take my chances and wait for our new record player in September?

 

Hi dgstrat- I did this test before Fremer did it, and its important to clarify that he is talking about Classic Records only. I found the same sonic differences that he did. Its so significant that you can hear it from the next room. I compared 180g vs 200g of Zep titles and the CSN title. I also messed with my VTA (someting I will never do again!) and still heard it. I dont understand it, but I heard it, and it wasnt subtle. The 200gs has a richer, fuller weightier sound, the vinyl had a lower noise floor as well.

There has to be more going on here than weight because the difference should have been insignificant. Vinyl formula is what I think- some of these same titled LPs were pressed several years apart, so its possible.

I also do not subscribe to the fact that heavier = better sonics.