VPI Avenger turntable with Grado Labs Epoch cartridge. My mini-review is here, post #296..

Out of curiosity Warren, what criteria led you to choose the Flying Fish record as your baseline for this adjustment, as opposed to say a choice test record. Or any other album on any other label?

 

It wasn't me who chose this record. David Shreve chose it, many years ago, for a few reasons. And since then, it has served many of us, who took his advice, very well.

(1) David, having tested many records for optimum VTA setting, found that the Flying Fish catalog is consistently pressed at a VTA requirement that is right smack in the middle of the range he found for all the records he has tested. So this makes it an average setting of VTA. From there, other records can be set slightly higher or lower as necessary. Or this average can be a good "set and forget" compromise.

(2) The simplicity of this particular recording of an upright bass provides a vivid demonstration of how easy it is to identify the changes in tonal balance of lows (the fundamental bass string notes) compared to highs (the plucking of the bass strings), as VTA is minutely adjusted. If you have read some of the comments here in this thread from listeners who bought this record on Ebay per my recommendation (well, David's recommendation), you should have noticed some VERY surprised and happy listeners. Just moving the tonearm up or down by 0.25mm makes a noticeable difference in sound, as a few people here have commented.

(3) In some review that David read in the past -- I think it was by Peter Moncrief of IAR Review -- he remembers that the reviewer declared this record's string tone to be the most accurately recorded of any record he had ever heard. So it is a good, natural sonic reference.

(4) This record is plentiful and inexpensive on Ebay, so we can buy a few copies, and not worry much about wearing the grooves out from repeated listening. Yet, it was a fairly limited release record, so there is little worry that various generations of pressing might have different sound or VTA requirement.

(5) The musicians on this record are spectacular stars in music history. The music itself is well worth owning and enjoying.

 

Makes perfect sense to me, thanks for the explanation!

 

Does optimizing VTA in this method "automatically" optimize for other aspects- midrange transparency, surface noise, etc?

 

I have never noticed any change in surface noise when changing VTA. But, yes regarding midrange transparency, optimizing VTA does maximize transparency across the entire frequency spectrum.

Obviously, there are some audible characteristics that are simply not affected by small changes in VTA, so they are just not a factor. They need to be optimized by other adjustments, such as tracking force, anti-skate, alignment, stylus cleanliness, etc.

 

But the parameter that changes SRA the most is VTF.

 

Really!!! How can that be??? The arm angle seems to have the most influence directly...

 

No, changing the SRA by 1deg will take about 4-5mm difference in height at pivot, changing the same amount by changing VTF will take a small amount of change in VTF.
Look into it.

 

A change to VTF will cause a change to SRA and VTA. (But saying "most" is misleading. Arm angle changes SRA/VTA "most".) Therefore, anytime you change VTF, you also have to compensate optimum VTA for that change.

Nevertheless, VTF obviously imparts its own audible characteristics that are independent of SRA/VTA. So, they both have to be optimized independently.

I simplify the process of trial-and-error for both by simply setting VTF to the middle of the manufacturer's recommend range. Then I optimize the SRA/VTA by ear. But there are audiophiles who set each by ear. This is a back-and-forth process that can take many iterations.

 

Hopefully this can be achieved before the cart needs changing!

 

Well exactly Warren I was just saying that the arm angle has more effect than the VTF IMO. I am the type who sets the VTF in the middle of the range and then adjust for the VTA.

 

Yep, and I agreed with you.

 

I don't understand, please explain. I agree that raising the tonearm about 4mm, increases SRA by 1 degree. And it also increases VTA by 1 degree. Reducing a little of the VTF (Vertical Tracking Force) will also increase SRA and VTA, but I don't know how much. It probably depends on that particular cartridge's cantilever length, and its vertical compliance.

In the sonic comparisons that Steve and I have done, using the EXTREMELY easy to use, graduated VPI tonearm height dial, we have found that just 1mm difference in height is audible. That means only 1/4 of 1 degree makes a sonic difference.

 

Yes for 10" arm raising the arm about 0.5mm at pivot will yield a change in VTA of about 0.1deg.

When playing a record the change in VTA, without changing the VTF, will at least be 10times more. This as the VTF is continously changing.
This is nothing new, Bruel&Kjaer worked a lot with different measurements on Vinyl playback in the days. Also Shure did.

 

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you wrote, maybe the English is not perfect enough for me to understand. Please explain, 10 x more than what? And what do you mean by VTF continuously changing?

 

Sorry about missing this whole thread all! I'll have to read through and get caught up

 

Warren, is there any more detail you can share regarding what to listen for when playing the Flying Fish record? Your previous description makes perfect sense, but I feel like I am still unsure of the optimal spot, in particular judging the attack of the plucks. The low bass seems to sound wonderfully full and deep over a pretty wide range on my arm, but I am having trouble knowing when to back off on the plucks. I guess I haven't heard live bass enough to feel confident in my judgement. My arm just uses a set screw and no means of measurement. When I first got the arm I was clueless, but without anybody to tell me what to do I did a lot of adjustments while listening to all sorts of records and found a happy medium where most records were not too dark or too lightweight. I'm not sure if my adjustments using he FF record have improved things or not. It does sound good... But it did before too!

 

I love the fact that one of my all time favorite demo records, the Flying Fish record, is the star of this thread. I know I'm not alone in liking this album just for its sonics. @Warren Jarrett has complemented it here, as have others. I also know @Bill Hart uses this LP as a demo. Before this thread, I never tried this LP for adjusting tonearm height. I did that, using Warren's directions, and ended up where I normally set my tonearm. Whew! That's a relief.

In the early 1980s, I sold a lot of stereos at Sound World in Sioux Falls using this album, a fact I mentioned in the LAST Record Preservative thread a couple of times, here and here. That copy, while beat to crap, is still very playable and quite enjoyable. Grading this LP is easy. Visually, it rates Poor. Play grading it, it's VG+. For its utility, sound quality and musical wonderfulness, it's graded Whoop-Ass.

Two years ago I finally retired this copy. For one, I wanted the insert, something that disappeared long ago. But this stereo store survivor is still in my basement. So I'd like to offer my old copy of the Flying Fish record for free to the first person who posts here, requesting it. I'll even cover the postage. Just say you want it.

EDIT: No longer available. Offer accepted. See below.

 

I am sorry, no, I cannot provide any more direction or detail than I already wrote. I don't know what to say, that the sound is just right for your taste, no matter where is the VTA, except you are one of the lucky ones that is all set. Enjoy.

 

Okay, thanks

 

I'll take it!

 

You've got it. I'll PM you shortly to get your mailing address.

 

Awesome dude. I don't mind picking up shipping though, your offer is very generous.

 

^ Naw, it's on me. When you look at this copy, you'll guess it makes a better pizza cutter than tonearm alignment tool. I couldn't charge you. Now if you were an old girlfriend...