VPI Classic 3 or SME 20/2?

Hello all - I'm considering moving from my Classic 3 with 10.5 3D arm to the SME 20/2 with SME V arm and I wanted to see if anyone out there has made this move (or a similar move) and if so what are your impressions. I'm using a Benz LPS cartridge right now and use the Allnic AUT2000 step-up transformer into the MM phono stage of my VAC integrated (sigma 160i). Overall I am very happy with my vinyl sound right now - I'm only considering trying the SME because it is available for a good price within driving distance and it's such a ballyhooed tt that so many seem to consider a destination piece. (I also, like many of you I imagine, enjoy trying new gear.) But it will be a bit of hassle doing everything involved to make it happen and so if it is going to be largely a lateral move I'd prefer to avoid the effort. I'm aware that the SME V doesn't allow for azimuth and on-the-fly VTA adjustments. Have also read that the Benz LPS is a nice match for the SME V. Also painfully aware that there's no way to know without hearing with my own ears - I can (and will) audition the SME but I never have much success getting a feel for other gear in short auditions in unfamiliar rooms. So any impressions out there would be much appreciated.

 

I have an SME 10 with an SME V arm. They both are a pleasure to play with. Smooth, precise operation, quality, clean organic sound. The SME V allows for azimuth adjustment, there is no dial for it but at the moment you tighten the arm in place there is play and tolerance to compensate for small angles. On-the-fly VTA adjustment is "theoretically" possible, but in tail-up direction only.
As a side comment I should say I don't understand on-the-fly VTA adjustment unless you have a friend you trust operating the gear while you are sitting in the sweet spot. If you are alone, on-the-fly VTA is much less of a feature.
I don't use the SME V fluid damping, just because I take the arm out the TT to swap cartridges, and doing it with the fluid in its pocket is painful. Otherwise people swear about that system, but I must say the arm is enough damped by construction.
Fitting a cartridge on the SME V may require a spacer between cartridge and headshell if the cartridge body height is 16mm or less, which is fairly common, and this is due to the arm tapered shape.
Sound is 1st class, noise is zero, and I suspect the SME 20 outperforms my 10 by far...

 

Thanks Jimi - I must say that the type of devotion that SME tt's inspire is big part of the draw for me. Reminds me of what drew me to VAC... any one review or post can be dismissed but when you have a quorum of people who are completely blown away it starts to seem incontrovertible.

 

Dave

I also have a SME 10 but have heard the 20/2 extensively in a friends store. I have also heard the Classic 3 but have far less experience with it than with the SME's. All I can say is, we should all have such tough choices!

Sound wise, they are both superb. They both have great tonearms. They're both very well made by people who really care. You really don't need to change anything.

Having said that, I can understand your attraction to SME. They are not flash, but they are beautifully engineered and beautifully made. It seems like everyone is making over the top turntables today but SME have been doing quality work for nearly 70 years, first with tonearms and later with turntables. They are not flavor or update of the month. They made three turntables and several arms for two decades plus only recently bringing out the SME15, their fourth turntable. To my mind SME are a last turntable kind of choice. And they have parts for everything they've ever made. Just first rate.

I love mine. Maybe you should keep both ( sick I know, but I've done it 4 times!!!)

By the way, you have a lovely system.

 

That's kind of you to say Clay, and yes I am very aware this is a luxury dilemma. Much as I'd like to keep them both, I'd need to sell the Classic 3. But if I did I think I'd about break even on the exchange (have a few other things to sell as well), and given that it largely will be a wash on the dollars front it does boil down to the sense that the SME is one of those potential endgame turntables that must be experienced. My upgrade-itis is as fierce as any certifiably insane audiophile but I have managed to acquire a few key components that I don't ever think of swapping from my system (VAC integrated, Verity speakers) and I'd love to feel that way about my turntable as well. Why I don't feel that way about my VPI I couldn't say, but I just don't, though I do think it's an excellent sounding turntable.

 

Haven’t heard both, but I’d go with the SME.

 

SME

 

Similar questions swirling about in my mind, but I'll take it a step further (down?)....how about the SME 10 with a 309 tonearm? Isn't this combo closer in price (hence more comparable) to the VPI than the SME 20? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're still looking at a substantial cash outlay with the 10A?

 

Well the 20/2 has been replaced by the 20/3, so it is technically no longer available, but yes when it was available it was significantly more expensive than the Classic 3. I don't know for sure how old this 20/2 or V tonearm are however - I've gotten an estimate from owner but he is second owner so it's not entirely clear. Fremer at least would have one believe that the Classic 3 with 3d arm (Classic Signature I think? I can't keep up with VPI nomenclature) punches well above its weight class. Definitely based on price alone, the 20/2 was in a different class than the Classic 3, but though I've usually found those types of price differences translate into performance difference, it hasn't always been the case. The other issue for me is that the Classic 3/3d arm/Benz LPS combo is sounding very good to me right now, so there's always the "if it ain't broke don't break it" fear.

 

Since you like the Classic 3 so much, I would not part with it. Everyone needs a second "table for life" .

I currently have a Nottingham Ace Spacedeck/Lyra Delos, so am open for a table for life, which for me would be an SME (I only heard at dealers and shows -- but I am convinced!). However, when that time comes, I will not get rid of the Nottingham.

So my vote, in your case, is to keep the VPI.

 

I currently have the SME 20/3 with V arm and I love it. I've also previously owned the model 10 and 20/2. SME's have a very neutral and organic sound; they are not immediately impressive TTs. The V allows the character of the cartridge to shine.

Having said the above, I once owned a VPI; I think it was the Scoutmaster and it was a very fine set up. You have a very good set up - as someone who loves SME, I think that moving to a 20/2 might be a side ways move. Good luck with whatever you decide to do

 

That's helpful input Alan, thank you. While I am beguiled by the prospect of owning an SME I admit I suspect something similar, that the SQ upgrade will not be that significant. At that level I also admit that a large part of my interest is merely feeling like an SME is a more prestigious piece to own than a VPI. Am I immune to such concerns? I am decidedly not. But then again... it's going to be a long drive to get it and always a hassle to sell a VPI. Lot of heavy boxes. This is a tough one.

 

No problem, Dave
You are not immune to wishing to own an SME! Pride of ownership is an important decision making factor.

Your TT, arm and cart. are considerably more capable than the VPI set up that I once owned (and IIRC, you're spot on - I had a tough time selling my VPI set up).

Also at this level, the actual cost of the SME c/w your VPI is a little misleading ie in the UK a high level VPI - I'm not sure what models they now have - is much closer to the cost of an SME than it is in the US (where I'm aware you pay a lots more $$$$ for SMEs). If that makes sense .....

 

Yes I'm aware of that as well - we here in the States fetishize the SME as exotic high-end kit and meanwhile in the UK the VPI probably has the exotic foreign allure. Based on what I've read the SME engineering and build quality is second to none, however, which I can't say I quite think is the case with VPI. I'm still leaning towards to making the move honestly simply because SME's don't come up around here very often, especially at a good price (while VPI's, especially Classics, are everywhere) and I'm awfully curious. I also think it will hold it's value quite nicely. It is hard for me to imagine getting it and being like "this thing is garbage." Boils down to whether it will justify the effort I suppose, and I'm only going to know that when I get it in my room and play it for a while

 

I owned a VPI HW19 mk.2 which I upgraded all the way to mk.4/SAMA, then an Aries and, for the past 10 years, an SME 10, all with the same SME IV arm that I bought new in 1987. I’ve never regretted the change, not even a little. The VPIs are wonderful turntables, but imho, the SME 20/2 will better the Classic in every sonic parameter, and for fit/finish/build quality, SME is in a different league.

 

Picked up the 20/2 with V tonearm today. Long drive. Unit is certainly an impressive bit of engineering - cleaning it up now and assembling. I'll report back on my thoughts.

 

Nice! We require pictures too. Lots of pretty pictures... so we can live vicariously through your expenditures

Seriously, SME and Benz should be a beautiful match, I know firsthand that Clearaudio and Benz are, hope it all works out brilliantly. I've always loved the SME V arm, almost bought one for a project table a couple years ago, there were some refurbished ones coming out of Hong Kong for a good price, but I was kind of reluctant since I didn't know the details.

 

Congratulations. You are obviously a person with very good taste and discrimination, because you have just selected one of the finest TT/arm combinations ever built.

 

Congratulations. I owned the VPI Classic 3 and enjoyed it but I must admit that it bothered me that a turntable that expensive was so noisy. The turntable passed along any noise caused by tapping it or the table that it was on. I suspected that also meant that it would pass along airborne noises in the room. All of this noise prevented the system from replaying low level details as well as it should have. I have always thought that the feet on the Classic 3 look like they belong on a cheaper table. My table was $8k in Canada. I expected a higher level of fit and finish. The gloss black finish on the table was gorgeous though!

I believe that when you have the SME 20/2 setup to perform at its very best, it should be a level above the Classic 3. My Vertere SG-1 is in an entirely different league than the Classic 3, as it should be considering the difference in price. My expectation would be that the SME 20/2 would be closer to the performance level of my Vertere than the VPI.

 

Congratulations on a wise purchase!

 

Pictures please!

Lovely turntable, enjoy the music!

 

Haven't heard either table. I own a VPI HW19 Mk.IV table with and SME 309 arm (with a Lyra cartridge, best of both worlds.) I've had both for many years now and I do not, in any sense feel the urge to upgrade. My turntable continues to take every LP i place on the platter and turn it into beautiful music - why mess with a good thing?

One thing I will say, if you live in the US, all the money you spent on the VPI went into making the table. While the SME is undoubtedly a wonderful table, a fair portion of the price you're paying goes to bringing the table into this country, not into the table itself. As to whether that's audible, only your ears can make that decision. But try (hard as it is) to step away from the case of upgradeitis you have and try to reason out if making the move is going to make your analog time sound better, or just scratch an upgrade itch?

 

He just spent good money to be sure to know the answer instead of speculating.

 

Fabulous - look forward to your thoughts, Dave.

 

My thoughts, my thoughts... are pretty clear right from the outset. In short, I'm thrilled that I made the effort despite the fact that it ate up most of an entire day and now I have some selling to do. The SME is a pretty massive upgrade over the sound I had with the Classic 3 in just about every parameter. At twice the retail price I suppose one would expect this, but you're always worried about the diminishing returns factor.

I'm not sure I have the language to describe the nature of the upgrade other than the obvious - the engineering and build quality aspect of the SME is staggering and eons beyond the fit and finish of the VPI. It feels like a military spec piece of gear (though to be fair the glossy piano black of the VPI is very appealing to me and overall I find it to be a beautiful turntable).

In terms of SQ the best I can say for now is that it reminds me very much of when I went from a PrimaLuna amplifier to the VAC that I have now. If you'd told me that I had to live with that PrimaLuna for the rest of my days I would not have complained in the slightest - it was a great amp, well built, lovely sound, and price-to-performance-wise an incredible bargain. But from about the first note I heard through the VAC I was aware that it was a different class of audio altogether and there was no going back for me.

I'd listened to the VPI quite a bit the past few days and very much doubted whether it was worth it even to pursue another tt because it sounded so full and big and alive. And I still feel that if the Classic 3 with 3d arm were the last rig I ever owned I'd be a happy man. But the SME is simply in another class to my ears, and I heard it that way after about 30 seconds of s1, t1 of Brubeck's Bossa Nova USA (2-eye, long time reference record for me though I'm not exactly sure why...).

The many many criticisms that I've read on the web that SME's sound dull and lifeless... this is truly baffling to me. Usually when there is a prevalent criticism of a component I find myself somewhat agreeing even if it doesn't come to be much of a problem for me. Lyras are bright. Check. VPI's are noisy. Indeed. But this dull and lifeless SME business - to say that this is not my experience is to understate the case considerably.

In conclusion, thank you all for your input. I'm grateful for this site to engage in threads like this.

(PS - I tried to add some pics but it says "uploads are not enabled.")