VPI MW-1 Cyclone Purchase and VPI RCM Question

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BarakaX, Jul 15, 2014.

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  1. BarakaX

    BarakaX New Member Thread Starter

    So I just purchased a MW-1 Cyclone RCM and I got a good deal on a demo version of the unit. What sold me on it was the better build quality (aluminum housing) than that of the 16.5 (particle board housing) and the forward and reverse motor. I didn't want to go with the VPI 17 because I don't need an auto fluid applicator. I am content to apply the fluid(s) myself since I want to do multi step cleaning. For me it was more appealing than the Okki Nokki given their current distribution problems in the US, the fact the MW-1 included a cover, and VPI replacement parts are easily accessible from various distributors.

    This is the first time I have used a vacuum machine as before I was using a Spin Clean. The Spin Clean, while good, became a bit of an irritant because the hand drying would leave small bits of lent that would collect on my needle even though I use a carbon fiber brush before playing a side. Also, the supplied fluid would leave the record with a bit of static even after zapping a given LP with a Milty Zero Stat.

    That said, since it was a demo version, I suspect it was used to clean close to 400 records already because the felt appeared to be a bit worn down. The felt fibers are not standing perpendicular. They have been pushed to the side even when dry. I am curious, for the owners of the VPI RCMs, do you still have a little bit of fluid residue after one revolution of the vacuum? The MW-1 instructions state to go two revolutions forward and two revolutions backwards with the vacuum on. What I find odd is I have found many user recommendations to go one revolution only, otherwise you get static build up which I did observe when I went more than one revolution. Also, how many records are you cleaning on average before having to change the tube or felt?

    Another thing I found odd, after cleaning about 10 records in total my motor ceased. I unplugged it for an hour and then came back and it ran fine. Anyone else notice this with their 16.5? Just want to see if this problem is in family with the 16.5 or I will look to send it back while it is under warranty.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  2. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    I use an Okki Nokki so I cannot comment of the VPI but the motor stopping after 10 records would make me very nervous.
     
  3. vpiindustries

    vpiindustries Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cliffwood, NJ, USA
    Hi @BarakaX glad to hear you have the Cyclone cleaning away! Could you possibly post a picture? Would love to see what it actually looks like and this could be a learning experience for other users who might have this problem. Also regarding the motor, there is a safety feature with our motors where it will essentially turn itself off if it is being over used/overheating. We want to make sure none of our products blowup!
     
  4. Dino

    Dino Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City - USA
    I have a 16.5 that I bought new around 1989. (It is old enough to have the sponge rather than the steel tray and drain hose. I use a baster to remove the bulk of the spent fluid.) The first time that the motor stopped turning I thought it was broken. (I had been cleaning a lot of records without stopping.) I didn't unplug the machine but when I tried it again it was working fine. Whew. I had that happen a couple of other times. It seemed to vary as to exactly how many records it took to trigger the safety feature. Probably other variables involved.

    Now I pause for a while after 10 records (20 sides) and the safety motor shutoff never triggers. (I think that I am being a bit conservative but I have been sticking with the 10 records method because I have had zero stoppages since.)
     
  5. Dino

    Dino Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City - USA
    1) On my 16.5, you described how I chose to replace my tube/felt assembly very well. It is when: "The felt fibers are not standing perpendicular. They have been pushed to the side even when dry. " I also noticed that the (dry) fibers are not quite as black in the areas that touch the record as they are in areas that do not touch the records when it is time to change.

    2) My RCM only revolves clockwise. I have found that four revolutions is what I need to ensure that the record is dry. I have not noticed static buildup, myself. If I did, my priority would be a dry record over the static (within reason).

    Occasionly, four revolutions is not enough. That tells me that I need to make a slight adjustment (twist) to the arm tube. Somehow, over time, it seems that the tube moves (rotates) ever so slightly and is not exactly in position. I usually put the cleaned records in rice paper sleeves. I will see moisture through the semi-transparent sleeve if it is not dry.

    3) I have never kept track of the number of records cleaned before changing the felt/tube. I use the method described in answer #1.

    If I were to guess, 400 records sounds in the ballpark.
     
  6. BarakaX

    BarakaX New Member Thread Starter

    Thanks for responding Mat. I re-read the instructions tonight and there it is in big bold letters, 'THIS UNIT HAS A THERMAL SHUTOFF ON THE TURNTABLE MOTOR. IF THE TURNTABLE STOPS, GIVE IT TIME TO COOL DOWN, AND IT WILL RETURN TO NORMAL OPERATIONS.' I totally missed this line. This makes sense now and I am glad you guys have this safety feature built in. Still I found it odd to shutdown so quickly on me today. Perhaps it was my multi step cleaning per side. Anyway, hopefully by the weekend, I will try and take some video and photos for others to see as a reply to this thread.

    I put in an order for a replacement tube so I'll have a new and used tube to compare. I am not sure if I will have it by the weekend but I will include it if I can.

    Regardless, the first record it washed after receiving the machine was a 12" DJ EP which I thought would be a good test record since they are usually pressed on lower grade vinyl. Moreover, it was a new pressing in a paper sleeve with lots of dust and paper fragments. After cleaning it up and putting on the turntable, I was amazed. Not a single click or tick on the whole record. I never had cleaning this good.
     
  7. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I've used a VPI since the earliest days- mine started life as a 16 and was converted to a 16.5, that's how old it is; and it is still running. I now use an Audio Desk but still use the VPI for pre-cleaning records. A couple suggestions based on experience with the earlier machines that may or may not have applicability to your Cyclone (I'll probably buy another VPI machine if and when my VPI goes to RCM heaven).
    I replace the vacuum tube/wands periodically- since they touch the record and are under the force of vacuum, I don't want any worn spots. I also keep them clean in between each side with the quick stroke of a tooth brush. I also use two separate vacuum wands (one is marked with a colored sticker on the top hub): one for fluid; one for (lab) water rinse. These sit in purpose designed glass trays (which are, in actuality, cheap glass butter dishes from the hardware/housewares store).
    Although you may wind up choosing a different brush or applicator, I find the MoFi applicator pad with handle to be the best for me- you have to pre-wet it, since it absorbs fluid, and you don't want to apply it to the record 'dry.' One pre-wetted, you are good to go for the rest of your cleaning session. ( I use the covers of the glass butter dishes, upside down, as holders for the MoFi applicators, which rest pad up- I can then control the 'slop' of wet brushes, and have them handy in a clean place). I will also brush the applicators before they get wet, in case there is any lint/dust on them.
    I tend to use a fair amount of fluid (AIVS No. 15 enzyme, which cuts down on the steps required for the Walker fluid regime); I let it sit after applying and agitating lightly with the applicator and turn off the motor. Depending on the record (I buy a lot of older vinyl), after a few minutes, I'll turn the motor on again, and apply a little more fluid, agitate a little more while letting the motor run, then vacuum. Then, the lab water cycle, with a separate applicator, same routine, and swap out vacuum tubes for vacuuming off the water. Sounds like a pain, but once you get the hang of it, it's easy.
    I thought the Cyclone was fan cooled, but I guess not. (HW-17 is, and I agree, having a fluid applicator feature isn't really appealing, but a fan is). That said, I have rarely overheated my old unit. Once the record is cleaned by this method on the VPI, it then goes into the Audio Desk. Without the next step (a second, ultra sonic cleaning step) there are still things you can do to minimize static. I rarely have static problems at the stage when I take a finished record off the VPI.
    I think that the Static-gun may actually put more of a charge on your records. It is very strong, and though I've owned them since the 70's, I rarely use them. (There is a trick to using the gun to charge a dry brush with an opposite charge, then using the brush on the record after it is cleaned). I typically dry clean with a carbon brush before I wet clean, to remove any loose surface detritus before I wet and agitate. If you are getting static from the vacuum process, you probably don't have enough fluid on the record or you are vacuuming too long. The potential is worse in the winter, with heat and lower humidity, at least in the NE. Walker makes a finishing rinse, which I think contains lab water, alcohol and some 'secret' ingredient. I think the alcohol, which evaporates quickly, may also help you get the record 'dry' with less vacuuming.
    Once you get a new vacuum tube, you'll also want to get the orientation of the slot just right- it is not perpendicular- that should be addressed in the manual.
    Hope this makes sense, from a long time user of the older VPI machine...
    PS: one last thought, on the amount of time the machine is operating before it shuts down; for a long time I was using Walker cleaners- four steps, fair amount of fluid. Now, using the AIVS No. 15 and lab water- two steps, and just as effective. But, less running time per record, and certainly less labor.
    PPS: I usually do two revolutions for any vacuum stage. It is enough. And mine can only go in one direction. Perhaps the reverse direction routine on vacuuming is meant to address potential static issues, I don't know. Maybe Mat can tell us. I always thought the bi-directional machines were designed more for the cleaning than vacuuming cycle, but having never used one, I don't know that either.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  8. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    Buy another holder as well, which will allow you to use one tube for cleaning and the other for rinsing. Bill's comments above are spot on, but I used the Mofi brushes to dry clean and never pre wet them. I'm going to try using Bill's method today and see if it makes any difference.

    M~
     
  9. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Mac, thanks for pointing out the holder thing, I wasn't clear- I certainly don't pull the wand from the holder each time I do a fluid v water cycle, I have two fully set up wands in their holders.
     
  10. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    It musta got pretty hot. I have cleaned say a couple thousand LPs with my 16.5 over the years and never had it shut down, even when cleaning a bunch of records in one session. I usually do about 6-8 revolutions applying fluid/scrubbing, and say 4 or so for drying per side. So it has been working pretty hard for a lot of years. I like the idea of the cyclone with the aluminum body but can't really justify it while the 16.5 is still kicking.
     
  11. BarakaX

    BarakaX New Member Thread Starter

    Sorry this is a bit overdue but thank you all for your suggestions and I noticed improved performance of my LPs with the additional suction cycles. This time no static was noticed. I think my stock tube that came with the unit and has not been overused as I previously thought. The recommendation to use a toothbrush to clean out the collected particles was an excellent idea.

    Also, per suggestion, I did get an additional holder and vacuum tube for the rinse cycle but ran into a problem. It appears the MW-1 Cyclone holder has as I would describe a lower case 'h' notch (a notch within a notch) in its base that permits it lower onto the platter. The stock holder does not have this same notch and prevents the holder from reaching the platter. I estimate there is probably a centimeter of clearance between the tube and the platter with the stock holder. Looking at the unit a little more closely, I think there is a screw in the holder well that causes some interference and the 'h' notch allows the MW-1 holder to clear the screw. I wish I could insert a photo directly but I don't have a online photo sharing account. This was a little frustrating since I am now out $30 for the holder. My only hope is that the MW-1 holders can be bought from an online retailer eventually.

    I did make some video of me using the unit and I tried to edit it for length. Watching someone vacuum records can be soooo interesting after about 30 seconds. The LP I cleaned was dead silent and that's pretty amazing for a used LP that is over 50 years old! Not a single pop or tick on the record. I wanted to put on a clip of the final result but I am sure YouTube would kill it for copyright infringement.

    Again, thanks for all the commentary and help.
     
  12. BarakaX

    BarakaX New Member Thread Starter

    Lastly, here is a video by Dr. Deadwax which helped push me into the MW-1 Cyclone purchase. If you're into record collecting, he has a number of videos that are also worth watching.
     
  13. Jack Flannery

    Jack Flannery Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Well, after watching the MW1work, I think iam buying one.
     
  14. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    I'm glad you're having success with your RCM now. I've been using my Okki Nokki for about a year a half now and love it. It took a few cleaning sessions to get my technique down but it's second nature now. No matter what brand a person buys I think a RCM is essential for a record lover.
     
  15. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    The collars on the tube holders are adjustable, there is an allen screw on it which you can use to adjust it. The ring around the new tube holder is a lot thicker than the old one. Once you adjust it, and if it still doesn't work, press down lightly on it and that should do it for that session.

    M~
     
  16. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    If adjusting the holder doesn't work, as Mac suggested, contact VPI directly and see what solution they offer. If the old holder is not compatible with the Cyclone, VPI should obviously have stock of the correct parts for the new machines anyway, and might be able to make good. (At a minimum, they should also encourage retailers to make clear there is some incompatibility issue, if that is truly the case). At worst, you could probably resell the holder/wand to someone here. I'd probably buy it from you, if only because I feel somewhat responsible for encouraging you to buy an additional holder/wand. :)
     
  17. whaleyboy

    whaleyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    I almost certainly need a new holder and wand, too (for a 16.5) so if you and/or BIll Hart don't want we can talk ;)
     
    Bill Hart likes this.
  18. BarakaX

    BarakaX New Member Thread Starter

    So since I don't have a means to post photos right now, I thought I would do another video showing the difference between the two vacuum tube holders. Hopefully, individuals interested in buying the MW-1 will find this useful since most of the online retailers (Music Direct, Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc, Audio Advisor, etc.) have rather sketchy info when it comes to the holders. Perhaps this is unique to the MW-1 and the word hasn't spread since it is relatively new.


    Bill Hart - Thanks for the offer but as I gain experience with the unit, I think I would have come to the same conclusion. If I can end up getting the correct holders, I will probably have a few on hand for 10" and 7" records as well. Whaleyboy or anyone else that is interested shoot me a PM and we can work a deal.

    I spent the afternoon cleaning records and learned to take a short break periodically. No motor ceases this time and I think I went through about 20 records in about a two hour period.
     
    Steve Maggioncalda likes this.
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