Want more analogue-like sound from red book

My cables are good enough I think. Audioquest digit coax and Chord analogue interconnects.

 

The AN DAC 3 utilises a PCM DAC chip if my memory serves. the x.1 DAC uses the AD1865 chip. Therefore must be sonic differences and the AD chip gets higher praise in the hifi community. I'll have a look on the AQ cable (not HDMI, this is digital coax). thanks!

 

Regarding the Audio Note DACs - _.1x MKii

The only DAC that uses the Philips TDA1543 DAC chip is the DAC 0.1x. The CD players that use this chip are: CD Zero, CD 1.1x, CD 2.1x mkii. These are the entry level machines.

The DAC 1.1xII on up and the CD 3.1xII on up all use the AD1865

 

No I don´t want a digital versus vinyl debate, I never want that, a digital versus vinyl debate is always silly to put it mildly. But the way the OP worded his first post, it was in fact already a debate; that he at the same time was saying he didn´t want.

But don´t see what I wrote as part of said debate, it wasn´t my intention at all. I have far more records than anything digital, I play records far more often than I play anything digital, and in fact I like playing records maybe even more than I like playing anything digital.

That doesn´t mean I´m fanatic and can´t see the many different obstacles vinyl has. It has, as a format, several built in limitations; playing a record has many built in limitations; it´s tricky to get most out of vinyl. The latter was the reason for my post, not any debate, hence my suggestion that, in fact, it might not be the digital sound that in reality is the problem.

 

Well, last idea, think about the speakers. They may work well with vinyl but may not be a good match with digital. I am sure this is not what you want to examine but after reading all the posts and your response it is the one area that has not been looked at in depth.

I ran into a similar problem as I was rebuilding my system from a vinyl to digital only. I had a pair of EAW/RCF mid-field studio monitors that just kicked with vinyl, but when I switched to digital it was not all roses all the time. Certain recordings just were not enjoyable anymore. I had wanted to convert my system from solid state to tubes and thought this might help. This did help but it just didn't work 100% for all of my digital recordings. The system was wonderful with good to great recordings but those that were recorded a bit hot / brick walled still were not as listenable as the better recordings. After all the upgrades I could not get those types of recordings to match the enjoyment I had with vinyl. It was a difficult decision but I decided to try out a pair of new current designed speakers as opposed to my old school studio monitors, which were more in line with those big JBL speakers people refer to and are being refurbished now. That was what did it for my system. I do not know what the difference in the speaker design was but the change in speaker allowed me to enjoy pretty much my entire collection of CDs, even those that were brick walled. They of course are not audiophile now, but just listenable and a lot warmer to my ears.

 

I see what you mean but I think the OP's question should be interpreted as how he can improve on his digital setup. Which also seems to be how most of the posters in this thread have interpreted it.

 

Agree, but it seems after 3 pages it appears he is satisfied with his pre, amp, transport and DAC, and NOS tubes, so what is left, cables or speakers. Sometimes you start out thinking the solution is one thing to find out you are barking up the wrong tree and need to change the focus. That is all I am suggesting. Can't hurt to audition a pair of speakers and listen and determine if this indeed may be the path.

 

The difference is probably MOSTLY attributable to the mastering and what is in the recording, and the medium plays a far smaller role. A lot of people prefer the crispier sound of modern mastering, so that is what the recording companies provide. About seven years ago, a controlled study showed that younger listeners actually preferred MP3 sound derived from a full resolution CD to the original CD itself; listeners like what is familiar to them.

I don't think you can do significantly more to change the sound of your setup to be more lush and fluid without messing up the sound in other ways. It would be worth while experimenting with some aspects, such as cabling and the choice of tubes, but don't expect a fundamental change in sound. You could also experiment with the shelving that the transport and/or DAC is sitting on. I was once surprised by the change in sound when a CD player was moved from one kind of shelving to another; it turned out that the "better shelving" (meaning much more damping of vibration) sounded too lean and dry and lacking in natural warmth.

 

As detailed in the link in post #30, there's still a lot that can be done to improve the sound of the OP's DAC (one could add AN silver resistors). I think that is the road. But you're right - the OP doesn't seem to have responded to that post. Either that or a different transport, but I'm not familiar with the OP's transport, so I have no opinion on how good it is.

Anyway, the OP has come quite far. Any further improvement won't come cheap.

 

I wanted to get the Chords myself, but the vendor I went through would not ship the US. Cables are not your problem. Take a look at my most recent thread, there are a few posts regarding a few good quality tube buffers that may be up your alley.

 

The chip in my Dac is the PCM63K a R2R multibit chip just like the AD1865. Not sure how different those chips are or how much difference they make versus other build considerations. Either way I am sure you can get your Dac sounding the way you would like with a few changes.

 

You may just not like digital. Ideally, through the right system with quality vinyl and digital things should sound more similar than different. I don't think the chip being used is as important as what happens after conversion in the analog output stage. If you don't think rolling outbut tubes can help anymore, maybe look for a used Cardas interconnect cable.

 

If it were me, I'd purchase of borrow an old (90's era) Rotel CD player and pop it into your system in place of your current digital front end. If the sound you describe with the discs you've mentioned is still the same, then it is digital (or those specific discs) that you are having a problem with. This is about the cheapest way to experiment as those Rotel players were some of the warmest digital to be had. Be sure to get one that uses the chip set as found in the RCD-955AX.

The old Stereophile review also mentioned that the AudioQuest Lapis cable "made for a much more laid-back presentation".

 

Excuse my editorialising but I wanted to cut your question down to the essential issue. I doubt that my reply will be seen as at-all helpful, but I wanted the same thing as you -- and I wanted it for 30 years. My problem was that I started listening to vinyl 40 years ago with what was a stupendous system for a teenager (Linn- and Naim-beating), and buying into CD after university I spent the next three decades wondering why digital never sounded anything like music or the utterly convincing facsimile of it that my turntable presented to me.

Here were my solutions, in temporal order, only the first of which will be of potential help to you:

1) I found (by whatever means, already having paid twice over for my music already) the flat CD transfers of my music (i.e., avoiding digitally remastered, 'deluxe', and otherwise futzed-with reissues). This makes a colossal difference to your 'digititis'. For instance, compare the audio of the original EPIC CD issue of The The's 'Soul Mining' with the '24-bit' remastered (card sleeved) CD that came out some years later. The former was moderately musical whereas the latter was a ghastly, cardboardy pastiche that was literally painful to listen to.

2) This second solution was my own and I do not advocate it to you -- I merely state it because you sought any and all opinions in your OP. Simply put, I gave up. I was on the cusp of auditioning a valved Rega ISIS and thought about how much Mint vinyl I could buy for that 10-grand. Then I remembered the comparison that I did between my CD version of 'Music For Films' and the old prerecorded EG musicassette of the same that I still had lying around, and how the tape trounced the CD in every respect. Then it all fell into place in a semi-epiphany: the format itself was intrinsically compromised, and so much so that no amount of valves, silver resistors, R2R dacs, green-pens, or frozen discs would Ever make my CDs sound like my vinyl did. Never once listening to my analogue rig as a young man did I ever want for anything in sound quality terms -- almost every new LP (or 12" single especially) brought not only new music to my ears but new sonic fireworks and audiophilic "wow" moments also. Similarly, never once did listening to my digital source (Rotel, Musical Fidelity, Nad,, you name it) produce anything other than disappointment compared to what I knew these albums should and did sound like on LP.

So I gave the lot to goodwill and started rebuying my LP collection again, bit by bit.

The bit about the 'wow' elements of analogue music is not simply rose-tinted memory -- once heard, it never leaves you, as I think that you intimate in your "liquid" question. For instance, listen to the drumming at the end of each verse in 'Sultans of Swing' from Dire Straits S/T on vinyl where Pick's right stick flicks from the high-hat to the ride cymbal as a flourishing accent to close each verse and marvel at the purity and decay of this high-frequency lick; then, contrast it with the decay-less and near-inaudible dull thud that issues from the CD. Same thing for the splash cymbal on The Cure's 'Primary' (from Faith), the splash decays clearly audible well into the next verse and another example of the seemingly limitless high-frequency resolution of analogue, and compare this to the 'thunk' that issues from the CD (even the flat(ish)-transfer of the 1st issue Fiction CD) that is over before you've hardly registered it. Contrast the astounding dynamics that issue from anything by Spear of Destiny on vinyl (particularly the 12" singles) with the limp joke that dribbles off of the CDs, or the thunderous sound of Depeche Mode's 'Shout (Rio Mix)' or 'Speak and Spell' on vinyl against the dynamically flat parody on digital, Tubeway Army's 'Replicas' on vinyl, the last-word in analogue synthetic-lushness and its sterility on CD, the aural firecrackers and thunder that are Ultravox's 'Vienna' and Peter Gabriel's III on vinyl vs. their flaccid CD incarnations, etc., etc.

I could go on (indeed, I have) listing examples from every album that I have ever owned that always sounds immeasurably (literally, I suppose) superior on vinyl than CD.

Ultimately, there's only one way to make your digital music really sound like analogue I fear...

 

I looked at your equipment profile. There is no mention of mains power conditioning/filters. You have to do this for digital. It’s more important than with analog for taming glare. To do it right both the transport and DAC should have their own dedicated line filter. A balanced power transformer unit should also be considered.

 

Cal Audio Delta/Sigma (or just sigma) might be good, too. Also there was a Rotel player with adjustable dither, if I recall correctly.

 

I had the BX Rotel, and I still thought music sounded like junk through it.

 

There were several different chips/sampling used in the "AX" and "BX" series...one must seek out a player that uses the "antiquated" Philips 16-bit chipset (the TDA1541A) as was implemented with the 955AX. The "BX" series was not the same at all.

 

Related: I've had an issue with headphones and my digital audio players (DAP). Often, many headphones have strong bass which I find unpleasant (an example of this are my Koss Porta Pros). The equalizer built into my DAP has allowed me to adjust to sound to compensate for the way different headphones color the sound (like with some earbuds which have not enough bass). It allows me to better enjoy my music.

 

A lot of people would be surprised how strident and even slightly unpleasant musical instuments are to listen too in the studio..Analogue recording and playback tames things down and can make music more pleasing to the ear.(If less accurate to the original sound coming through the studio desk than digital recording/playback would be)

I do not feel the fault of any disappointment in CD reproduction is down to the format being flawed.I have many AAD CD's that sound wonderful on my player.Maybe the initial digital recording process is just too revealing in many cases.

 

I find many "modern" recordings and gear too bright. Perhaps it's my hearing...dunno. I gladly sacrifice detail for smoothness. Tone controls help, as well.

 

I think that is the key with tone controls/equalizer: I don't consider it wrong to use it if it helps you enjoy the music. To me it is just a tool that you can use if you choose.

 

and digital may go in the opposite direction because of its extremely quiet background and dynamic range. Neither are perfect, so we keep searching for the elusive answer to our quest for more enjoyable / better sound.

 

Yes i agree.I think that audiophile equalizers could come to fore in the next decade or so..One's that would also be able to remember pre-sets for each album in your collection for example.So not only would you be able t fine tune your system without any loss of sound quality,but also individually fine tune each recording in your collection.

 

You cannot EQ away modern brightness caused by modern AD or DA converters or other modern "studio quality" gear. Using EQ to remove that sort of brightness is like trying to remove the banana from a banana apple smoothie after it has been blended. You can add more apple to the smoothie to lessen the banana. But you'll never get rid of the banana.

Heavy use of EQ on the playback side also has other problems. Primarily phase and other artifacts of the EQ processing. The more you EQ the worse that gets. EQ processing is not audiophile and does not fix digital or make digital more analog sounding.