Want more analogue-like sound from red book

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by jenkovix, Sep 11, 2018.

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  1. jenkovix

    jenkovix Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Europe, Hungary
    I don't think either that the problem is the cable(s).
     
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  2. jenkovix

    jenkovix Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Europe, Hungary
    I do like digital :) That's why I invested into a transport and DAC.
     
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  3. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I used to think this way years ago, but I came to the realization that it's an exercise in futility. Accept things for what they are. Don't try to make them what they are not. I don't expect chicken to taste like beef. If I want something that tastes like beef, then I will eat beef. If you want analog like sound, then listen to analog. Let digital be digital. Accept, appreciate, and enjoy it for what it is.
     
  4. Eno_Fan

    Eno_Fan Staring into the abyss: Brockman BIF, Pilbara WA

    Location:
    Izieu, France
    Well, I was also in a band at the time (early 80s) and we recorded in Ken Scott's studio in Bridlington and Roy Neave's far-more capable Fairview down't road. This was before Roy went digital (twas where 'Floodland' was later recorded) and if you think that "...strident and even slightly unpleasant musical inst(r)uments are to listen to(o) in the studio", then I must suspect that you just haven't been in one. Drums sound pretty loud when you're behind the kit but it wasn't untill I heard myself played back through Roy's wardrobe-sized JBLs that I really knew what impact was in music. Good-old 30 ips, 32 x multitrack, nothing less.

    I'm always glad when I read of those who are content with digital. Being un-content with it because you know how easily and comprehensively it is bettered is not a comfortable (or cheap) place to be...
     
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  5. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    So in the studio you preferred the sound of the drums once they had gone through the process and influence that recording/playback on analogue tape imparts on the sound? I think we are in agreement.That is why i normally prefer AAD CD's.

    I feel the capabilities of digital playback are superb.(Given well mastered recordings)..On a lot of occasions the full digital process from recording,mixing,transfer can be a bit too revealing.Although there are exceptions and i do have a few great sounding DDD CD's as well.
     
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  6. Eno_Fan

    Eno_Fan Staring into the abyss: Brockman BIF, Pilbara WA

    Location:
    Izieu, France
    Not quite, what I prefer is how superbly high-write speed analogue (15-30 ips, 33-45 rpm) captures everything a musical instrument has to offer. When I hear an analogue signal after ADC-DAC, I find it inferior at all frequencies from the mid-range up. Electric guitar sounds painful to me in this context -- listen to PG III on original vinyl and then the digitised 45 rpm Real World reissues -- one is musical, one is dreadful, although the compressive mastering didn't help.

    The OP, to whom I addressed my response, wants his digital to sound more analogue and he is far from alone. If you like your digital then I honestly could not be happier for you, viz. my previous response, but for some of us 2 samples to characterise a 20 khz waveform (i.e., 44,100 sf. / 20,000 hz), such as ride-cymbal harmonics, just don't cut it. If you could find "...well-mastered" high-res (24/192) copies of all of the content that is available as intrinsically high-resolution vinyl media going back 50 years then you'd have a point and a perspective for comparison, but that is never going to be. Vinyl remains the only true high-resolution audio format with a beyond-substantial media-base. Is our OP wrong to want what he wants? Are the legions who pay $100s to $1000s for vinyl LPs similarly under a misapprehension in regard to what they hear, desire, and are prepared to pay handsomely for? I don't think so.
     
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  7. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    High resolution vinyl? That is fairly subjective, as the formats resolution and dynamic range cannot compete with even standard 44.1/16 bit digital.
    Will not question that you find cymbal harmonics and all other frequencies more pleasing on vinyl than CD..That doesn't necessarily make vinyl more accurate or transparent.

    I think i have found the perfect compromise.Quality analogue recordings played on a digital source.Combine with a smooth DAC and i have the full powerful 'analogue' sound signature that we both like,but without the expense,variability,inconsistency,wow& flutter,inner groove distortion.etc that is inherent in a vinyl set up.
     
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  8. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    And I could be quoting any number of posts in this thread. I have asked my self these questions over and over again.

    I grew up on analog, because, well, that is all there was. That should not be take to mean that warped recordings. poor recording, poor engineering, poor mastering and poor pressings, etc... are anything that I share any love for.

    But not every record is like this and some sound excellent, are quiet with almost non-existent clicks and pops. So we know the medium can sound good, even though it often does not.

    Going back over to the digital side, I had CD's and CD player's back in the eighties, more detail than I ever knew was there, everyone was raving over them, well not quite everyone, I could not stand them. Cassettes destroyed vinyl before the first CD ever hit the market. So don't attribute the demise of the record to CD's, because it had already happened.

    Folks, the same people who embraced the cassette, "warmly" embraced the CD. There should be no surprise here. Do you think that the majority of them had any idea what digital technology was, doubtful it is.

    I am a self confessed "HATER" of digital music. Everything that was bad about it, was really bad and I despised it greatly. I go to the point that I wouldn't listen to 2-channel stereo music any more. I didn't even own a singe piece of audio gear. Then, back in 2011, I rediscovered digital music in a way that I had not heard in earlier years. So began my journey back into audio.

    That should not to be taken that I am embracing digital as a superior format, as there is a whole lot of really bad crap out there that is digital.

    But, I also have CD's that are not harsh and render audio to perfection, with silent background's without clicks or pops. I am very much in love with these recordings that I own.

    Even though the OP of this thread has made it clear, that this was not another format war, that it is about non-analog sounding digital. Well, it has come back to "format's" one again.

    It should not be, either is a good and acceptable format for most human ears. If you don't feel that this applies to you, you can stop reading NOW.

    Folk's, IT IS NOT ABOUT THE FORMAT! IT IS NOT ABOUT ANALOG VS. DIGITAL, PERIOD!

    Our host master's for both, many of you own both. Some things sound better in analog and some sound better in digital, why? Who cares? At the end of the day, all we, as consumer's have is an end product. If something "sucks", then it sucks, leave it and move on to something else.

    Exactly why does it suck? Who knows? It is doubtful that you will ever know. Stop banging your heads against the wall looking for the perfect source. There is no such thing and there never was.

    But, stop blaming the format! Everyone is kicking a dead horse.

    I don't worry about 45's vs. 33 1/3, I don't concern myself with bit rates, these things are meaningless to human ears. By that I mean that just a bit depth or bit rate by itself is totally meaningless, it all depends on what the original signal is that you are attempting to reproduce.

    You want higher resolution, fine. But most anyone who has been on the planet for a number of years, has a collection of real media that you can hold in your hands and that you can play (any time you feel like it). The recording quality is different from every different record and CD in your collection. If you own analog, do you throw it away to go digital? Those who are disenchanted with digital are rediscovering the joy's (?) of analog. Should they get rid of their CD's because they are not high-res?

    Of course not. There is a never ending choice of great music out there in every genera that is imaginable, go listen to what pleases you and sounds good. There is nothing being gained trying to pick out things that sound bad. Don't concern your selves with things that sound bad, concern yourselves with material that sound good.

    S&G
     
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  9. jenkovix

    jenkovix Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Europe, Hungary
    yesterday I've put a Daruma II set under the preamp, and that made a positive difference (all other units have the Daruma II underneath them).
    at the beginning maybe I phrased wrong what I want: instead of "analog-like" probably "near-analogue" would be better...
     
  10. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Mmm. Then again, I'm not sure I want (or need) a pair of wardrobe sized speakers in my room. Happily live without them or that kind of intrusion.

    PG3 is a good example. I had the original Charisma release. Bought the 2LP set a couple of years ago. And have a Nimbus mastered regular CD from the early days. Needless to say, the CD version is terrific. That's not to say that the original LP was poor, more that the compact disc version was it's equal. Or better. YMMV.
     
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  11. Spica

    Spica Easy like Sunday morning

    Location:
    UK/Cyprus
    The most analogue player I have owned or heard is the Naim Audio CDI. It’s an oldie but they are built like tanks. If you can at least grab a listen to one. They don’t sound like your typical CD player, that’s for sure.
     
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  12. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    I was checking out YouTube videos about analog vs. digital and came across this one that was of interest to this discussion (the relevant part begins at 17:25):

     
  13. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    The recording and mastering is so much more significant than the playback medium when it comes to sound quality. For a lot of the DG classical catalog from the 1970's, I will take DG's CD reissues over the original vinyl release; the originals were mastered so thin and pressed so poorly compared to the reissue. Unfortunately, when it comes to a lot of popular, rock and jazz recordings, the CD reissues are often not well mastered, particularly if you like the sound of the original analogue release. This might the case of catering to changing public taste, laziness of the engineers, or deterioration of the master. Given that a lot of current releases recorded digitally don't sound very good, I suspect that most often it is a matter of the engineers catering to changing preferences.

    It is interesting to see that "accuracy" is touted as a benefit to digital recordings. I read an interview that involved several recording engineers. They all agreed that high resolution digital recordings sound more like the direct feed from microphones than an analogue tape recording, meaning digital recordings are more accurate, but, they all agreed that the analogue tape sounded better.

    I suspect that listeners vary quite a bit in terms of priorities and sensitivity to different qualities in reproduction. That makes it hard to know what it is about the OP's experience with his Audio Note DAC that make him want something more analogue sounding; more of what, less of what? It is hard to say. For my hearing, Audio Note digital sounds good and I enjoy it much as I do good analogue playback so I am obviously not focused on the same properties.
     
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  14. Ken E.

    Ken E. Senior Member

    Stereophile ran a review of the HoloAudio Spring DAC in May that addresses the question at hand, I highly recommend reading it.
    I’ll be running my own review between my new OPPO 205 and my current Magnaxox TDA 1541-based unit over the next six months, for me the old Magnavox has never been digitally bested.
     
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  15. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    For LP sound from vinyl, you might take a listen to the Weiss DAC 501/502. I has a build-in "Vinyl Emulation" mode, which Alan Sircom found effective in the linked review. I've not heard it, but I'm intrigued. (I owned a Weiss digital equalizer for a while, and I found it superb.)

    Weiss Engineering Web site
     
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  16. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    There's that TDA 1541 coming up again. :shh:
     
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  17. mds

    mds Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    What does it do, introduce pops and clicks?
     
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  18. Laservampire

    Laservampire Down with this sort of thing

    Well put!

    Honestly, it’s all in the mastering when it comes to digital. The inherent limitations of the vinyl format are what keeps the sound quality from getting too aggressive (though I’ve heard my fair share of terrible vinyl masterings as well), whereas with digital you can make things sound far more horrible than they should.

    I have yet to hear something on vinyl that completely outstripped a perfect digital mastering of the same source, even 16/44.1.

    I’ve heard flat digital dubs from master tapes that would make your jaw hit the floor in terms of warmth and clarity, all the things digital is supposedly not.

    Don’t get me wrong, I love vinyl, but it’s a flawed medium. Pitch wow, inner groove distortion, surface noise and other physical limitations of vinyl all detract from the sound of a pristine master tape IMHO.
     
  19. Halloween_Jack

    Halloween_Jack Senior Member

    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    I used to own one, and wholeheartedly agree. Whilst undoubtedly rather coloured compared to the state of the digital art today, it’s still one of the most involving CD players I’ve ever heard, and I still sometimes regret selling it on. That thing could boogie! Great build and looks too!
     
  20. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I would have to say that I have heard things on vinyl that I have never heard on CD. The reasons for this, I can not say.

    I can sort of understand that a lot of vinyl is not exactly what I would call enchanting to listen to. From that standpoint, I can still find it easier to forgive that medium, because of the many mechanical steps involved in the process. This is a very labor intensive process and many recording's perhaps never had the budget they would need to make things the best that they can be, so I understand that.

    I do like you say about digital with respect to, "whereas with digital you can make things sound far more horrible than they should".

    That seems to be the question that I can't seem to get my head around. Let's say, that it is the "perfect medium" because, as you say, it has every technological right to be and it can be.

    So why do they make so many things sound so "HORRIBLE"?

    Some things sound pleasant and other things, I can't listen to at all. Why is that? Certainly nothing that I am able to figure out?

    I have a very nice system that is very revealing, with an SET amplifier, driven by a tube amplifier, which ultimately is driving horn loaded speakers, that play things as they see them. They are not forgiving but they are honest.

    With the right source, the system can do beautiful and remarkable things. If you have a chance, please take a few minutes to look at the photos and descriptions that I have provided at the end of my equipment profile. I believe that you might find it interesting.

    Curiously enough, I enjoy lossy streaming Pandora over most of the CD's that I have in the collection, even of the same music.

    I don't quite understand the reason for this, as it would seem counter intuitive. We should opt for maxim data streaming rates, higher resolutions, but the majority of the time, I prefer the lossy over Redbook CD quality. Except in the case of exceptionally recorded and properly engineered and mastered CD's.

    I do have a few original albums that are fairly pristine such as D.S.O.T.M., that sounds absolutely killer on vinyl. Also I find the new remastered audiophile vinyl to be exceptional, more so than the CD version.

    But, I would say that I have maybe only a couple of dozen records, maybe less, that sound this outstanding.

    For me, I really don't care about the format or resolution. If something sounds good, then I listen.

    For the most part, except for a few items here and there, my system is now and end game deal for me and as an "audiophile" I can finally say that I am happy!

    I just play what sounds best through that media, it completely works for me. :)
     
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  21. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    The linked review gives some guesses as to what's going on.
     
  22. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    @SandAndGlass : I "liked" your post. Wish I could like it twice. There is a lot of gorgeous music in all formats.
     
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  23. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    I'll tip my hat towards the Wolfson WM8740 as well. Well over a decade old, it's still in use today. And having heard the two, it's the better of the pair... :eek:

    (IMO!)
     
  24. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Rock 'n Roll !!!

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    It's not one or the other for me. I have records that are excellent, and I have cds that sound excellent. It's nice to have options.
    Format doesn't matter as long as the sound quality is good. Records, even with some surface noise, have better tone than cds.
    This could be from the cart, or pre-amp, but it's a distortion that somehow lends depth to the sound, and I like it.
     
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  25. nick99nack

    nick99nack Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spotswood, NJ
    My Sony CDP-507ESD uses those DACs, and it's still the best redbook audio player I've heard.
     
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