What direction would rock have gone without The Beatles?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by HearHear, Aug 5, 2018.

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  1. htbomb

    htbomb Hot Rod

    Location:
    FLA
    Without The Beatles this board would not exist.
     
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  2. Spaceboy

    Spaceboy Senior Member

    Location:
    Near Edinburgh, UK
    It seems really odd to me that people think The Beatles were the key to musical progression. They were a part of it, sure, but to think that without them rock would never have happened is just absurd.
     
  3. Spaceboy

    Spaceboy Senior Member

    Location:
    Near Edinburgh, UK
    It probably would. Or one like it would.
     
  4. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    yes there is a big difference between Richard Rodgers & I am the Walrus, i am not saying one is better than the other, thats subjective and all were genius songwriters. Richard Rodgers himself clocked this within a few weeks of hearing their music. ( although he may have taken a less welcoming view of Walrus ) below may be an informative watch, Walrus is from 13.40 or so in.

    The Beatles: a musical appreciation and analysis, by composer, Howard Goodall CBE
     
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  5. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    its hard to see how it would have happened without them but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have, just hard to see how.
     
  6. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    It's not that they were the key to musical progression but for better or worse, people placed them in the forefront in terms of the progression of commercially viable popular music for a significant part of their existence. There were certainly artists out there who were more daring and progressive than The Beatles were...but they weren't nearly as accessible. For me, this was their greatest attribute, artistically; being able to combine "progress" with commercial appeal. Whether or not "Rock" would have happened without them is irrelevant...if not Rock, other styles would have taken over. What natters most (to me, anyway) is how Rock music brought people together at that point in time both musically and culturally...."everyone" seemed to progress together..and this line of unified thinking seemed to begin with The Beatles.
     
  7. If I Can Dream_23

    If I Can Dream_23 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Beautifully said.
     
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  8. spinyn

    spinyn Senior Member

    Location:
    New Orleans
    Their impact on other musicians is central to their importance to me. Heck, they even gave the up and coming Rolling Stones a song! I don't think Bob Dylan would have been influenced by what he heard on Top 40 radio but he was by the Beatles' hits. The Byrds and members of the Dead were inspired by them after seeing how much fun they seemed to be having in "Hard Day's Night."

    Their impact on the overall culture is huge, of course, but they lead the way for musicians, as well.
     
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  9. Adkchaz

    Adkchaz Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Oxford, PA
    Just look at the top 100 listings for the three years just before she loves you and i want to hold your hand were first played in late 1963, november in baltimore radio. Try to guess the trends in the music selling before the beatles crossed the pond.
     
  10. NYSPORTSFAN

    NYSPORTSFAN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Howell, Michigan
    The Beatles rightfully deserve immense credit for a number of reasons in which there whole topics on this.

    In my music class we spent a whole chapter on The Beatles. One of the most important things people now take take for granted is how important the British Invasion which they kicked off was and the key rock bands they actually had a direct influence on.

    In 1963 there was only three Top Forty songs by British acts on the Billboard charts and following two years 65 and 68 respectively. This in essence started a musical dialogue and cultural exchange between America and British rock acts that continues actually today but in different waves. The were now American bands who were influenced by British acts like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Kinks just to name just a few that would have not happened without the British Invasion.

    They broke the American dominance in rock music and the genre went into numerous directions for the reasons I cited above.

    Bob Dylan.

    “They were doing things nobody was doing. Their chords were outrageous, just outrageous, and their harmonies made it all valid. You could only do that with other musicians. Even if you’re playing your own chords you had to have other people playing with you. That was obvious. And it started me thinking about other people.

    “But I just kept it to myself that I really dug them. Everybody else thought they were for the teenyboppers, that they were gonna pass right away. But it was obvious to me that they had staying power. I knew they were pointing the direction of where music had to go.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
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  11. katieinthecoconut

    katieinthecoconut Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Another band with a different name would have eventually shown up and done the same thing. They're only revered because they did some things first. Someone else would have just done it instead. They're not deitys.

    The idea that guitars would have died out, or bands twenty years later wouldn't exist, or music would just be jazz and R&B forever, and so on is kind of hilarious. The impact would have been limited to that pocket of time until somebody else came along and held the same role and did the same things.
     
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  12. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    There is absolutely no indication that what you're saying is true and the seriousness and definitiveness with which you're saying it is mind boggling. Forget about them being "deitys". The Beatles may have been special in many ways but they weren't the sole saviors of humanity. But what you seem to be missing is the crucial ingredient of serendipity in The Beatles story and ultimate significance. While they had talent, they didn't "just happen" out of the blue just as someone else couldn't have just happened. There were numerous factors that went into the "birth of The Beatles". Things were taking place behind their backs which led them to the "promised land" which they had no clue about...and in the end, it all came together in just the right record company, in just the right studio with just the right producer. And the same can be said for the existence of Brian Epstein in their lives. To flippantly say that "somebody else" would have come along and done it instead it unbelievably simplistic whether you're a fan of what they did or not.
     
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  13. NYSPORTSFAN

    NYSPORTSFAN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Howell, Michigan
    I have read through this thread it was a painful experience. You have people who actually can't even admit The Beatles fundamentally changed their genre of rock music. Were not talking jazz or classical music but the genre of rock music. We are not talking about life altering issues here it's just music.

    Whether it would be another band than The Beatles is not relevant. You are also dismissing the facts in terms of rock bands based on this list below they have almost double Bob Dylan influence.

    The ranking based on direct influence on other musicians from data using All Music.

    1 The Beatles 1230
    2 Bob Dylan 669
    3 The Rolling Stones 557
    4 David Bowie 432
    5 The Velvet Underground 425
    6 The Beach Boys 422
    7 The Kinks 384
    8 Neil Young 374
    9 Jimi Hendrix 371
    10 The Byrds 360
    11 Led Zeppelin 355
    12 Miles Davis 342
    13 Brian Eno 327
    14 Kraftwerk 323
    15 John Coltrane 315
    16 James Brown 299
    17 The Stooges 285
    18 Sonic Youth 282
    19 Pink Floyd 281
    20 The Who 278
    21 Black Sabbath 276
    22 Hank Williams 275
    23 Elvis Presley 273
    24 The Clash 273
    25 The Ramones 258
     
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  14. katieinthecoconut

    katieinthecoconut Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I never said anything about them not influencing people (although that AllMusic data, which I've seen before, isn't actually very useful because it's just the top artists in their tree of tags they assign to artists and isn't grounded in fact, such as surveying artists, and so on). What I said was that, if The Beatles did not exist, another band would be influencing people instead. It may be a band you've heard of, it may be one that never got off the ground and is entirely forgotten because they got there first. It might not have happened in 1964 or in the 1960s at all, but the pedestal they're put on as if nobody else could have done it is silly, and I do stand by that. To suggest, as one person did, that guitar music would have died without them, is exactly the sort of reason why people get their backs up about them being overrated.
     
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  15. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    Yeah, because early rock'n'roll, blues, folk, country, r&b and soul had nothing whatsoever to do with the development of rock.:laugh:
     
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  16. NYSPORTSFAN

    NYSPORTSFAN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Howell, Michigan
    The people who were saying guitar music would have died without them were not the Beatles or their fans saying it but people in the record business saying it.

    You other points doesn't address anything other than casually dismissing what The Beatles actually did.
     
  17. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    People in the record industry say a lot of things and not all of it turns out to be true. For the most part, many of them are just as clueless as those outside the industry, sometimes more so because they live in a bubble and don't always know what's happening at street level.

    I would never refute the influence The Beatles had on music, but to suggest there would be no guitar music without them is just nonsense and that's being very kind.
     
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  18. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    I don't know if you read my earlier post but regardless of the points you're making which appear to be very well though out, you're still jumping the proverbial gun and stating your assumptions as impending fact. There is no way to tell if another band would have been influencing people on The Beatles' level or any other. It's just as easy to say that had they not come along, music would never have become the unifying form of art it became in the 60's and much of the 70's. Their influence went far beyond "good songs". But again, they didn't "just happen" in order to assume that anyone else would have "just happened" in their place. And this is not about Beatle-idolatry, by any means.
     
  19. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    Buddy Holly and the Crickets laid the template for the Beatles, so safe to say guitar rock would have happened regardless of the existence of the Beatles.
     
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  20. NYSPORTSFAN

    NYSPORTSFAN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Howell, Michigan
    I think the term guitar based rock & roll bands was on the way out.

    However, take a look at the top 100 Songs of 1963 in The United States.

    1 Jimmy Gilmer and The Fireballs Sugar Shack
    2 Beach Boys Surfin' U.S.A.
    3 Skeeter Davis The End Of The World
    4 Cascades Rhythm Of The Rain
    5 Chiffons He's So Fine
    6 Bobby Vinton Blue Velvet
    7 Paul and Paula Hey Paula
    8 Little Stevie Wonder Fingertips II
    9 Village Stompers Washington Square
    10 Impressions It's All Right
    11 Andy Williams Can't Get Used To Losing You
    12 Angels My Boyfriend's Back
    13 Kyu Sakamoto Sukiyaki
    14 Lesley Gore She's A Fool
    15 Tymes So Much In Love
    16 Peter, Paul and Mary Puff (The Magic Dragon)
    17 Peter, Paul and Mary Blowin' In The Wind
    18 Dale and Grace I'm Leaving It Up To You
    19 Nino Tempo and April Stevens Deep Purple
    20 Surfaris Wipe Out
    21 Al Martino I Love You Because
    22 Rebels Wild Weekend
    23 Bobby Darin You're The Reason I'm Living
    24 Four Seasons Walk Like A Man
    25 Inez Foxx Mockingbird
    26 Little Peggy March I Will Follow Him
    27 Chantays Pipeline
    28 Jan and Dean Surf City
    29 Lesley Gore It's My Party
    30 Eydie Gorme Blame It On The Bossa Nova
    31 Dovells You Can't Sit Down
    32 Martha and The Vandellas Heat Wave
    33 Randy and The Rainbows Denise
    34 Rooftop Singers Walk Right In
    35 Jimmy Soul If You Wanna Be Happy
    36 Beach Boys Surfer Girl
    37 Trini Lopez If I Had A Hammer
    38 Tommy Roe Everybody
    39 Essex Easier Said Than Done
    40 Dion Ruby Baby
    41 Los Indios Tabajaras Maria Elena
    42 Ruby and The Romantics Our Day Will Come
    43 Skeeter Davis I Can't Stay Mad At You
    44 Barbara Lewis Hello, Stranger
    45 Ronettes Be My Baby
    46 Roy Orbison Mean Woman Blues
    47 Orlons South Street
    48 Henry Mancini Days Of Wine And Roses
    49 Major Lance The Monkey Time
    50 Four Seasons Candy Girl
    51 Bill Anderson Still
    52 Bobby Vinton Blue On Blue
    53 Garnet Mimms and The Enchanters Cry Baby
    54 Lou Christie Two Faces Have I
    55 Ray Charles Busted
    56 Crystals Da Doo Ron Ron
    57 Shirelles Foolish Little Girl
    58 Lonnie Mack Memphis
    59 Roy Orbison In Dreams
    60 Kai Winding More
    61 Rick Nelson Fools Rush In
    62 Brenda Lee Losing You
    63 Bill Pursell Our Winter Love
    64 Tony Bennett I Wanna Be Around
    65 Miracles You've Really Got A Hold On Me
    66 Jaynetts Sally Go 'Round The Roses
    67 Sam Cooke Little Red Rooster
    68 Crystals Then He Kissed Me
    69 Elvis Presley (You're The) Devil In Disguise
    70 Nat King Cole Those Lazy Hazy Crazy Days Of Summer
    71 Jackie Wilson Baby Workout
    72 Marvin Gaye Pride And Joy
    73 Rufus Thomas Walking The Dog
    74 Ned Miller From A Jack To A King
    75 Drifters Up On The Roof
    76 Johnny Mathis What Will My Mary Say
    77 Jan Bradley Mama Didn't Lie
    78 Bobby Vee The Night Has A Thousand Eyes
    79 Cookies Don't Say Nothin' Bad About My Baby
    80 Johnny Cash Ring Of Fire
    81 Doris Troy Just One Look
    82 Allan Sherman Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh! (A Letter From Camp)
    83 Lesley Gore Judy's Turn To Cry
    84 Rolf Harris Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport
    85 Miracles Mickey's Monkey
    86 Dion Donna, The Prima Donna
    87 Nat King Cole That Sunday, That Summer
    88 Sam Cooke Another Saturday Night
    89 Al Martino Painted, Tainted Rose
    90 Dixiebelles With Cornbread and Jerry (Down At) Papa Joe's
    91 Steve Lawrence Go Away Little Girl
    92 Ray Charles Take These Chains From My Heart
    93 Sunny and The Sunglows Talk To Me
    94 Martha and The Vandellas Come And Get These Memories
    95 Elvis Presley Bossa Nova Baby
    96 Dee Dee Sharp Do The Bird
    97 Beach Boys Shut Down
    98 Chiffons One Fine Day
    99 Bobby Bare 500 Miles Away From Home
    100 Del Shannon Little Town Flirt
     
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  21. James5001

    James5001 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    I think the Beatles influence on the general public is far greater than it ever was on musicians tbh & that's not even a dig at them.
    Musicians worth their salt are never driven or inspired by one influence it's far too limiting.
     
  22. ralphb

    ralphb "First they came for..."

    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York
    The Velvet Underground would have ruled the world!:)
     
  23. We'd probably be in the same place we are now.
     
  24. NYSPORTSFAN

    NYSPORTSFAN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Howell, Michigan
    The problem with arguing this it's silly comparing one band or The Beatles in this instance to full genres of music that predate them. I would actually concentrate on what they accomplished on who they influenced which impacted the future of music which is huge. There is no debate about it.
     
  25. NYSPORTSFAN

    NYSPORTSFAN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Howell, Michigan
    The Beatles did have an impact on one member of Velvet Underground.

    Quote from John Cale

    'They were a driving force in the Velvets, and made us work harder and got us on our bikes. Rubber soul was where you were forced to deal with them as something other than a flash in the pan. It was rich in ideas and I loved the way George managed to find a way to include all those Indian instruments. Lou and i had tried to work with the sarinda. We were only playing it just to get a noise but I realized you could play melody on the sitar as good as Norwegian wood. Norwegian Wood had this atmosphere of being very acid. I don't think anybody has ever got that sound or that feeling as well at the Beatles.'
     
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