What do audiophiles mean when they talk about Pace, Rhythm & Timing?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Gretsch6136, Oct 12, 2017.

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  1. Alan2

    Alan2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    All due respect to earlier posts . . .

    They (audiophiles) mean, I think, the extent to which the equipment reproduces the reality of the recorded music -- which has all of these 3 qualities.
     
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  2. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Well, I sold Linn, Naim etc for 15 years, and I thought it was pitch!

    Pitch and timing, the basis of all world music.

    When we listen to live music, we describe the orchestra / band as being "tight" (timing), we describe the singer as tuneful, or tuneless (pitch). Great "feel" (timing)

    For some obscure reason, when listening to reproduced music, we talk about upper mid band colouration, and holographic imagery.

    Has anyone ever heard a piano recording played back through a system, where it sounds slightly out of key?
     
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  3. ggergm

    ggergm another spring another baseball season

    Location:
    Minnesota
    Yes. Thank you. :)

    And some gear makes a stereo sound more musically realistic in the midbass through the lower midrange, where PRaT is commonly perceived. A clean, tight and fast midbass is often hard to reproduce. When done with precision, we better hear the music's pace, rhythm and tempo.


    (I prefer the last one to be "tempo" instead of "timing". Same difference. It just seems more musically relevant to me. We don't talk about timing with live music but we do talk about tempo.)
     
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  4. triple

    triple Senior Member

    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Well, that's another British manufacturer who developed their own lingo.

    BTW, the PRAT crowd have their high priest - Martin Colloms. His reviewing seems to have been able to measure PRAT somehow. The Naim flagship CD player (forgot the designation) used to the one with the highest score ever back then - that was 15 years ago and the scores were about 80 MCU (Martin Collloms Units), but has since been seriously eclipsed by several other contenders, including Audio Note. Some of subrecent heavyweights scored over 400 MCUs.
     
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  5. ggergm

    ggergm another spring another baseball season

    Location:
    Minnesota
    So much of high-end audio is voodoo. Be it simple things like gold versus nickel connectors or complex things like belt versus direct drive, I'm not sure how much of the differences audiophiles sweat over are based in real science. But here that's not an issue. As an old stereo salesman, I could demonstrate how one speaker revealed the rhythm of the music better and make the sale. I like Ivor Tiefenbrun's toe tapping test. A stereo that makes you subconsciously tap your toe is the better one. I used that on the sales floor all the time. Everyone has heard a stereo that is easier to dance to.

    What's curious to me is that while the concept of PRaT is controversial with hardware, if I went on the Music forum and talked about how I liked the Braille cover master of Stevie Wonder's Talking Book because it grooved the best, nobody would question it.
     
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  6. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    The only audiophile 'lingo' that makes less sense than PRAT is when a Linn tt is described as having sound that makes you tap yr feet. Can't count how many times, from different sources, I've heard that little nugget of nonsense. BTW, wouldn't toe-tapping be caused by superior PRAT? Puh-leez. Full disclosure, I've owned my LP12 for 27 yrs and love it but....
     
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  7. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    Pace, rhythm and timing is controlled by the recording and playback speed, that is unless something is seriously off with your playback device, i.e. it's sick.

    IMO a ridiculous use of words to describe who really knows what?
     
  8. SquishySounds

    SquishySounds Yo mama so fat Thanos had to snap twice.

    Location:
    New York
    This thread is certainly entertaining :-popcorn:
     
  9. seed_drill

    seed_drill Senior Member

    Location:
    Tryon, NC, USA
    Sounds like a British insult.
     
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  10. seed_drill

    seed_drill Senior Member

    Location:
    Tryon, NC, USA
    Fixed it for you. ;)
     
    triple likes this.
  11. Dreams266

    Dreams266 Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ
    It's really sad to see that there are as many people clueless about hi-fi audio on the Hoffman forums now as you used to only see on the AVS and other forum websites. Maybe they should make a separate forum for those who "believe" in the finer aspects of audio enjoyment. This is the fault of all the low grade audio on the market and the earbud era.
     
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  12. Ski Bum

    Ski Bum Happy Audiophile

    Location:
    Vail, CO
    PRaT is a really confusing term, and I never use it. It would be much better to say fast and well-defined transients, coupled with excellent dynamics.
     
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  13. telemike

    telemike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Greensboro, NC
    Ask the mods to create a sub-forum for the believers
     
  14. digitalanalog

    digitalanalog Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I am only capable of supplying a rather extreme example from my personal experience: many moons ago I received an advice that for my large floor standing speakers I need to be using really high wattage power amplifier (due to the extremely low sensitivity of my speakers -- 82 db). So I went out and I bought a class D monster amplifier that boasted some insane amount of wattage.

    When I plugged that amp into my system, the sound it produced was absolutely incredible. It was actually bordering on ludicrous. The band sounded like they were all hammered -- sounded like each band member had at least 10 shots of tequila! The bass was totally off, couldn't catch up with the drums, the cymbals were off the beat so much that it wasn't even funny. Basically, the entire band was seriously off with regards to timing. It sounded as if each band member was playing in a separate, isolated room.

    Plugging my old amplifier back, everything returned to normal. So I returned that class D amp for a refund, never to attempt the same experiment again.

    So in my mind, there is such thing as all audio components working in concert to produce tight, synchronized sound, the one that forces you to tap your foot while listening. Seriously sub standard components appear to undermine this timing to various degrees. The converse must be true -- high quality components should contribute to tighter, more integrated, better synchronized overall sound.

    Nothing makes me more angry than being forced to attend a live performance where band members cannot seem able to lock into a groove, and where the bass timing is off while the drummer is varying the beat. Why would I want to relive such horrid moments while listening to my home stereo?
     
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  15. SquishySounds

    SquishySounds Yo mama so fat Thanos had to snap twice.

    Location:
    New York
    I want a magical amp that re-records music while it plays! :biglaugh:
     
    Robert C likes this.
  16. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    What is "fast bass"? Isn't that an oxymoron?
     
  17. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    Well, if they's how they played when the recording was made, I'd be suspicious of a playback component that somehow made it better...
     
  18. SquishySounds

    SquishySounds Yo mama so fat Thanos had to snap twice.

    Location:
    New York
    Certain loudspeaker designs change the speed of sound, think about it! :laugh::shtiphat:
     
  19. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    I say the part that is "fast" isn't bass. Disconnect the midrange and tweeter drivers and tell me again how fast the bass is when the woofer is playing alone. Those leading edges, like the "slap" of a bass drum and the "pluck" of an upright bass, are high frequency components.

    Play a ML CLS and an AR3A with a 200Hz low pass filter and tell me which one is faster.
     
  20. digitalanalog

    digitalanalog Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    If that's the case, how come everything returned back to normal when I switched back to my good amplifier? Are you saying that a good audio component can ameliorate crappy playing?
     
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  21. Tiger-Eyes

    Tiger-Eyes New Member

    Location:
    St. Elsewhere
    Equipment that changes attack and decay of sound can make a track sound more snappy and thus 'faster'?

    I know cheapish Sony cassettedecks with hxpro had this magical feature back in the day. The timing of a track got more precise, making it sound fresher. As if every note got placed nearer to absolute time.

    R&B production does this.

    Take 1 measure of a handplayed piece of music. Cut it up into 4-8 equal parts. Respective to where every kick/snare or next note begins. Replay it and let the sequencer time-correct, putting every 1/4 or 8 note nearer to actual timing. Making the loop sound tighter.

    I can imagine, if filters in hi-fi equipment can change transient attacks of sound and decay of notes. This can clean up a track and make it sound more snappy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  22. Hubert jan

    Hubert jan Forum Resident

    Just came home from a Jazz concert, acoustic, no PA, in a small cultural centre.
    Came to the conclusion HiFi, High End, Audiophilia just big nonsense.
    But you can listen to your favorite artists at home, 100 years ago this was not possible.
     
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  23. Bachtoven

    Bachtoven Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    As a musician, I can safely say that those elements are up to the musicians. If your equipment changes any of them, then throw it away and buy something that works.
     
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  24. Hubert jan

    Hubert jan Forum Resident

    ARROGANT REPLY.
     
  25. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Why is that "arrogant"?

    I've heard folks say that if something (wires, cables, etc.) change the sound, throw them away. Nothing should alter the sound.
     
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