What do audiophiles mean when they talk about Pace, Rhythm & Timing?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Gretsch6136, Oct 12, 2017.

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  1. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    Again, fast transients are not a low frequency phenomenon.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  2. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Gear can cost more than a house and sound horrible and not like music! Case in point, two people I know. One has the system he kit built in college, simple and good, and well chosen. He has less in that system than most do in one component (less than $600 all in from new). I can listen to his system all day long and anything but really bad recordings can be enjoyed without fatigue. Another friend has a $50,000 system, all of it so detail extreme and so over done for one aspect of sound, that I can't listen to it 10 minutes without being tired of listening to any more of it. My in between the two approaches system both people enjoy listening to. It is warm and friendly enough sounding but detailed enough that both sides like it. PRaT is ridiculous and too many use the term wrongly.
     
    Old Rusty likes this.
  3. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    "Musicality" -- that's another one; if I'm reading a review and a reviewer talks about the equipment's "musicality," I stop reading. It's just nonsense at that point. 100% of music has "musicality." 0% of equipment has musicality -- It doesn't make music, it doesn't write music, it reproduces a signal. Equipment cant impart "musicality" or remove "muscality." Music just always has musicality.

    I also don't understand how that the opposite of reproducing all the detail on a recording is some how being more musical. That kind of bi-polar thinking -- equipment is either described as "detailed" or "musical" -- I see in the audio press all the time. But I don't really see what one thing has to do with the other.

    Maybe the less detailed piece is less accurate because it masking detail with more noise or a bloated lower midrange frequency response, or maybe the more detailed-sound piece of equipment is less accurate because it has a frequency response suckout in the lower midrange and upper base which can sometimes make some listeners thing they're hearing more detail by making higher frequency portions of transients more prominent than those lower mid and upper bass frequencies. There are reasons why one thing sounds one way, and another thing sounds another way. But I don't understand how they're opposites.
     
    basie-fan, Gumboo, andolink and 3 others like this.
  4. royzak2000

    royzak2000 Senior Member

    Location:
    London,England
    Detail in audio is easy push the upper mids, same with the the treble. I use Sonus-Faber, valves and Koetsu. This about as musical as can be but I never feel that detail is lacking.
    Just not in my face.
     
    Jimi Floyd likes this.
  5. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    My motto is, get the midrange right, all else will follow. I can live without the very bottom or top octave, but the midrange must be as right as it can be made. Otherwise, I find it difficult to listen to. I also demand reliable and consistent sounding, no drama queens wanted. royzak2000, you and I are not too far apart about how our system sounds, even though we use different approaches to get that sound.
     
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  6. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    I don't think that's true. Transients have energy at all frequencies. It something I didn't really know or understand but learned in discussions on this board with @Jimi Floyd . The ability and speed of mics to respond to the lower frequency parts of transients, and of a system to play it back, have a big role to play in the sense of realism in audio recordings and playback in my experience.
     
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  7. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

    The challenge for an amp is the power required to reproduce bass to a flat frequency response and those pulses can come quickly, much less power required to produce low energy high frequncies.
     
  8. juno6000

    juno6000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL
    He said NOT a low frequency phenomenon
     
  9. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    What's the "A" here?
     
  10. juno6000

    juno6000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL
    An incorrectly capitalized "A" for "and"
     
    McLover likes this.
  11. I was going to say the same thing regarding belt-drive turntables that run faster than 33.3 or 45rpm. In some cases 1 to 2% ahead of speed. So much for PRaT...
     
    juno6000 likes this.
  12. royzak2000

    royzak2000 Senior Member

    Location:
    London,England
    and.
     
  13. royzak2000

    royzak2000 Senior Member

    Location:
    London,England
    This is the way it was always quoted in Hi-Fi mags. this thread is the odd one out.
     
  14. juno6000

    juno6000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pembroke Pines, FL
    I forgot to add that it is often mentioned in conjunction with the irresistible urge to tap one's toes while listening to music. In some cases, causing one to spontaneously jump up and dance around the room. The closest thing I have found to this PRaT phenonenon in the literature would be Reefer Madness, which is also associated with Bebop jazz. This may or may not cause spontaneous toe tapping as well
     
  15. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    Clarification..Are we saying equipment that is neutral and transparent simply reproduces accurately the timing /pace/rhythm that is on the actual recording.Or are we saying that some equipment colour the music to enhance these attributes?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  16. Morbius

    Morbius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookline, MA
     
  17. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    Oh, it's an audio term, alright!

    It's when an audiophile is eating picante sauce while using the only pregnancy-preventing method allowed by his belief system, during the adjustment of his carburator...
    ...when the audio system's playing.

    Nailed it...! :D
     
    Old Rusty likes this.
  18. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

    I believe colourisation hides PRAT, although it may give a warm sound, which some may prefer. Now we can argue about what colourisation and warm mean
     
    enfield likes this.
  19. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    Wait, wait..
    a) Fast transients contain a broad frequency spectrum, including frequencies much lower than those the same instrument can sustain: True and proven by spectral analysis.
    b) As a rule planar speakers have a faster or cleaner bass than dynamic ones: I don't agree at all, but just my opinion.
     
  20. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    To be clear, what I am saying is that transients ARE a low frequency phenomenon. Transients are an ALL frequency phenomenon since transients contain energy at all audio frequencies and, since they're transients, they are fast, by definition. So, yes, transients are low frequency phenomena, and transient speed is a low frequency matter, as well as a mid frequency matter and a high frequency matter. It's not exclusively a low frequency phenomenon but it's not NOT a low frequency phenomenon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  21. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    I hear you. After 5 months of forced abstinence from vinyl I just finished one hour ago setting back up my main TT, and my Koetsu is now sending shivers down my spine, again.
     
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  22. royzak2000

    royzak2000 Senior Member

    Location:
    London,England
    Party, Party!!
     
    Jimi Floyd likes this.
  23. G E

    G E Senior Member

    Air cembali/clavier/piano/keyboard then. Extra points if you bounce around on the chair.
     
    royzak2000 likes this.
  24. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    Spectrum analysis will also show you that all those elements of a transient don't occur at the same time. The rise time for the low element is much slower. The leading edge is necessarily high in frequency.
     
    Jimi Floyd likes this.
  25. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    I totally agree with your first two sentences, I would rephrase the third one stating that the steeper the leading edge the higher the highest frequency contained in the signal.
     
    misterdecibel likes this.
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