SH Spotlight What sounds just like the master tape: CD, Vinyl, SACD or a 1:1 analog Reel tape copy?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Nov 30, 2007.

  1. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Washington DC USA
    So I can understand, with Byrds CDs ( original vs Anesini), which would be accurate, and which realistic? I think I would say neither and both!
     
  2. Bytor Snowdog

    Bytor Snowdog Active Member

    Location:
    Texas
    Answer: The one that sounds better, sounds better :)
     
  3. Espen R

    Espen R Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norway
    More like a change of tonality than loss of tonality. But probably not anymore with todays modern converters.

    Similar things happened in the history of CD in the late 80's when Panasonics/Technics came upon the market with the very first D/A converters in CD players that used PWM (Pulse-Width Modulation) technology. It was the 3,5 bit MASH (Multi stAge noiSe sHaping) D/A converter. It was cheap to produce, it performed well and sounded good, especially in the higher frequencies. But, it had a sonic signature to it. I owned a Harman Kardon CD player produced in 1990 that shared this same D/A chip with Technics.

    What this early CD player with MASH D/A converter and DSD/SACD has in common is the use of Noise Shaping. And disadvantage by use of Noise Shaping can "be heard" if not done right.

    Today, nearly everything in consumer and professional A/D and D/A make use of noise shaping.

    A note from 1989 that explained Noise Shaping. "A Complex Recipe For Better Digital Sound".
    `Noise Shaping` A Complex Recipe For Better Digital Sound
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
  4. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Washington DC USA
    Is noise shaping the same as upsampling?
     
  5. Grant

    Grant A Musical Free-Spirit

    Location:
    Arizona
    No! The two have nothing to do with each other.

    Noise shaping is a method of moving the dither noise around.
    Upsampling is converting a lower sampling rate to something higher.
     
  6. Rhapsody In Red

    Rhapsody In Red Formerly Wrapped in Plastic

    Tusen Takk

    I didn't consider that it could be do to Converters and Quantization. That explains a lot, and while being somewhat complex, I think I understand it better now.
     
  7. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Curious, did Steve do more experiments after that initial post?

    I read the first 8 pages and the last 2 pages of the thread, I apologize ahead of time if I missed this information in the pages between.

    Did Steve did same experiments in another studio?

    How about doing same experiments, but using digital master?

    Thanks!
     
  8. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Washington DC USA
    My
    My daddy always told me if you know you have to apologize for something in advance, don't do it. :tsk: Steve has several great posts within this thread, which I think will answer your questions directly from him better than I could. That said, to the best of my knowledge, he has only told us about one such test, but I don't recall if it involved a dgitital master -- I don't so, though I could be wrong.
     
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  9. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    You are correct, I read all the pages for Steve's comments and there is no mention of retest.

    So, I am still wondering if the CD sounded different observation is only true for that instance in that specific studio, true for most studios, or true for all studios, including mater tape or master digital transfer to CD format.

    Thanks!
     
  10. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Washington DC USA
    I guess the "reproducibility" question is always out there with just one observation, but I interpreted his comments to apply to more than just that one studio, i.e., generally. What makes you wonder whether a digital master would be different, or is it more of a "could be" question ?
     
  11. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Yeah, it is more a "could be" question for digital master. The chain of data transfer got to be different between digital master vs tape master.

    Also, the transfer process from tape master to digital might be different between studios? Or all studios use the same method? :confused:
     
  12. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    2 years after original post, Steve himself mentioned that a new way of doing dsd was a great improvement and the results of original test could be different if he was to use the new method.

    This tells me that I should also be wary of this particular studio's way of transferring master tape to CD format. May be there is improvement possibility. May be other studios with other proprietary transfer chain can do it better.

    Basically, my point is this: I think it is a flaw reasoning for other vinyl fans to use the first post to support their assertion that vinyl is superior to CD.
     
  13. More like ten years after original post.
     
  14. libertycaps

    libertycaps Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Only read the OP.

    Vintage analog cut LPs made a lot more sense after buying higher quality gear that does the format justice.
     
  15. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Hmm, when did Steve comment this year? I thought I only saw in 2009 comment.
     
  16. Sorry. What was I thinking?
    [​IMG]
     
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