What to expect from really good or high end turntables?

Magic

 

In my opinion the more you spend on a turntable the more it sounds like CD..So you will then probably go down the Tube Amp route in order to recapture the warm sound signature you were looking for from an analog set-up.

 

I am not going to argue with your logic......just offer my opinion.
If your speakers are sub-par how would you know the improvements you are making when upgrades are made earlier in the system?
Then IMHO there is synergy between components that play into the equation.
That is why this is such an intriguing hobby.....it's like a box a chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get until you take a bite.

 

speakers are critical, but costly - even great Maggies will cost $3,500 used (3.7)

how about spending $20 on a box with sand in it while waiting for your Toronto trip?

 

I really like my digital set up that's taken years of tweaking to get the sound I like. I would describe it as big and warm w lots of detail but not fatiguing in any way... kind of like the way people describe vinyl.
I am new to vinyl and still in an evolving process and would say that my vinyl rig isn't to the level of my digital... yet.
Although there is one album that I finally heard a glimpse of what vinyl has to offer. Its a Little Feet album. The Feat have a lot going on w multiple lead guitars, organs, piano, vocal harmonizing, multiple drums, etc... I've always thought this digital recording could be better and was a bit constrained, confused and even sterile. When I heard this recording on vinyl the music seemed to occupy space in a more 3 dimensional less confused and natural way. And it boogied. I suppose a really great rig would do this with more recordings.

The previous posts were accurate in their description that its very difficult to trouble shoot weak links. I takes a lot of time and patience to identify subtle differences. It helps to have two of everything... use the components in an office, AV or kids systems. Swap out one thing at a time and listen to the differences. You can start to get a picture of what each component brings to the game.

 

Disagree. The only CD like sound will be in speed accuracy on the better table.

 

I don't disagree with your final assertion that there is no right way or wrong way but the weakest link argument is absolutely true. You can have the best source in the world but you'll never know how good it is unless the rest of the chain allows the maximum quality of reproduction of the high quality signal output by the source. That "musicality" you say is there is only potential at that point in time; it simply does not exist audibly because the upstream gear is incapable of revealing the musicality inherent in the output signal.

Think of optimizing every possible aspect of your system--call it the Rolls Royce System ($20k, $50k, $100k, whatever)--up to the speakers. Now hook that system up to a couple of beat up fifty year old Advents you found at the flea market for $20 bucks. How good do you think that system is going to sound? Do you think your high end source is going to sound so great in that scenario? Sure, it's a great source, but you'd never know it by the sound you're experiencing.

On the other hand you could put a Crosley at the source end of the Rolls Royce System and that system will sound like crap too!

Weakest link. Upgrade it all!

 

Well, it looks like you are off to a good start. The 301 can take you a long way with the right plinth and arm. What phono preamp are you using?

 

"I suppose a really great rig would do this with more recordings."

Bingo. This is why I always encourage people to spend as much as possible on their gear and the gear will elevate the sound quality of your entire library of recordings. (Mind you, a great recording will sound even better, than mediocre recordings, on that better gear.)

And to this idea of "trouble shooting weak links"...most people have weak links everywhere, it's just a question of the degree and how anal you are about sound reproduction! "Fixing" one weak link only creates another one! (Some of them are worse than others for sure. Room issues can be brutal.) I think what happens is that sometimes people think they can just swap out a component for another one and "fix" a perceived problem. In all my years of doing upgrades I have tended to make pretty good-sized leaps (in money terms, usually spending twice, out more, the cost of the component I was replacing--although I never thought of it in that way, it's just that looking back that's usually been the case) and there's always been improvements in overall system quality. Those "subtle difference" you allude to suddenly aren't so subtle!

You can decide when you want to get off the upgrade train!

 

Right. People need to stop thinking that if one piece of equipment cost twice as much as another piece of equipment, the latter should sound twice as good. It just doesn't work that way.

It's more like if one wants a certain level of performance, the cost is what it is...

 

Damn.. you should have told me that before I invested $4,000 on a new TT and cartridge.

 

Another thing to consider is the cartridge. I recently upgraded to an Audio Technica 44oMLb on my Technics SL-D205 turntable and am blown away by how much detail I can now hear.

 

I am afraid of Audio Technica as I read that these cartridges may be sensitive to capacitance variations and I don't have neither how to change it or to even know the fixed capacitance specs of my phono preamp. Which means that if I take a chance and it doesn't work, I'll have to spend more on a new phono stage.

 

I have a Shciit Mani.... which is I'm suspecting as the weak link. I went cheap here on purpose as I knew it would take me some time to learn how to align the arm/cartridge and get the cleaning thing arranged. Like I said earlier, it takes me some time to listen and understand what I want. Still not sure about the next proper phono amp but I'll take my time and get something used at a good price, so I can sell it if me no likey... which is what I'm doing w the Schiit.

 

As stated a TT is mechanical in nature. So for me isolation is critical, you need to find a TT that minimizes to almost eliminates vibrations and this does not mean only a $5K-$10K table can do this. It is about how it is built and materials used, the other critical thing is setup. If you have no idea how to setup a TT correctly, a $5K table will not sound any better than a $2K one or less. As much as people want, they are not plug n play.

If you read reports/reviews of mega bucks TT the wording is the same as a TT costing much much less. I would pay attention to the tonearm and its bearings, if there is any play it will translate to the cartridge and to the speakers.

After that then things like speed control, phono stage, cables and of course cartridge will contribute to an amazing sounding analog rig.

 

The sword of Damocles for each component in any system where the owner got upgraditos. A piece that got love and affection and was praised for the way it gave it´s owner the truest of sound reproduction 3 years past will at the drop of a hat be an object of scorn as soon as you change 2 or more of the other components. Hi-Fidelity has got nothing to do with fidelity.

But 10 years later, as people prone to infidelity often do, we praise the old-loves we hurt in the past and left for something better as the "the one that hot away".

..and sob into our cups, telling each other everything was better before

 

It's hard to explain, kind of like trying to explain color to somebody who's never seen any.

The best analogy I could come up with would be to picture being almost blind as a bat. You can make out shapes and colors but not very well. And forget about minute details and such. Then, somebody gives you a magical pair of glasses and everything looks gorgeous! Details everywhere! Better and more varied colors! Etc, etc, etc.

I'd suggest you stroll into a high-end audio store and listen to a higher-end turntable to hear how the music can sound. The difference is really really big.

It seems phono preamps tend to be the last discovered device for those getting into vinyl. I know it was for me. The difference a great phono preamp makes is astounding. With my current setup, if I had bought a higher-end cart, it wouldn't have impacted the sound much because the bottleneck was my phono preamp. Buying a great one has made my cart sound a *ton* better. Honestly the best upgrade I've made in a long while.

 

Funny, that sounds like the problem I had with Ortofon carts.

 

My first higher end table was the Technics MK1600 and I thought I would never upgrade. However, I purchased a VPI Prime last year. Frankly, most of it was because of the looks...I knew it might sound better but I had no benchmark to know how much so. I had no idea a table could make so much difference, especially with so many people here happy with the Technics. In short, I know what blacker blacks now means! And I'm so tired of reading this, but there's just no other way of saying it: I hear so much more coming out of the grooves than I ever thought possible before. And instruments coming out of nowhere, that I could barely hear or never noticed before. It's really stunning how much information is in vinyl, if one has all the right parts. The biggest element is the space you hear in the music that you may be aware of, to a degree, with a lower end table but now it is very much a part of the whole experience, not just a subtle effectl.

The biggest thing I learned: what you are paying for is for the arm and table to get as out of the way of the record as much as possible. And, apparently it costs a lot of money to achieve that. My arm sits on a pivot so sharp there is a warning in the directions not to touch it (but did I? What do you think...how could I resist). There is literally only a very light stylus touching the vinyl, and very little else effecting the signal. So that means you hear everything, for better or worse. Blacker blacks is a term you read about, but it's hard to put into words. It's one of those things that when you hear it, you know it. But, I think it means a lot of nothing. And that nothing is what allows all the subtle elements to rise to the top. And that isn't going to happen too well on a lower end table, there's just too much that gets in between the record and the input of your amp. I don't know how much further up the trough you have to go to get there, as I jumped really high up from the Technics, but it sure is worth it if you love vinyl and music. I have always wondered what I would have heard if I jumped from the Technics to, say, the Marantz that looks nice and is around $1400, or some other the other tables in that range, instead of jumping right up to $4000, but I have no regrets or doubts that I am surely hearing more that a more medium level table in that lower/middle price range.

 

@Jrr
Couldn't have said it better!

I came from a HW-19 mk3 , and was having buyers remorse while I was waiting for delivery.
That remorse evaporated once I put the needle to the record, I didn't even dial everything in yet.

Sums it up !

 

A little lower distortion in some cases.

 

A better turntable (and a better tonearm and a better cartridge) compared to a lesser turntable will deliver lower levels of mechanical noise, including motor vibration breakthrough, leading to greater resolution of low level detail and being able to hear deeper into the space on the recording, with less "vinyl whoosh," and the cliched "blacker blacks"; wider dynamic range especially at the softer end of the dynamic spectrum but also at the louder end, with a startling sense of surprise and suddenness to dynamic swings; more neutral tonal balance -- less upper bass/lower midrange bloat and/or HF hash; more precise, focused imaging and a wider and deeper soundstage (on recordings with a soundstage); less frequent mistracking (and with a better cart a lot smoother and yet at the same time more detailed HF presentation). In short it'll deliver a lot less of the sounds we associate with playing a record and a lot more of the music actually on the record. But I agree with @Bill Hart , I wouldn't look at it price, I'd looked at design and performance differences -- what ways is X turntable different from Y turntable, how does it differently handle terminating record resonances and isolating the motor from the arm and lower cogging torque, and isolate from environmental breakthrough, and produce speed stability, etc. And of course there is no substitute for listening.

 

4011021 has a very good system. That being said, no, you don't have to have a system that is "up to the task." We're not talking about computer speakers here. And even we were, you'd hear an improvement.

The source is the first in the chain. Upgrade from there.

4011021, you're turntable looks cool! Was it made entirely in Brazil? How does it sound?

 

It would be a shame to rule out AT cartridges. I've tried many carts and to this day my favorite is the MLX150, which I think I paid all of $350 for. For my personal taste, it beat out the Ortofon Black, the AT ART9 (though that's still what is on my VPI Prime...it's an awful close race but the ART9 was a whole lot more money and it's a moving coil cart), and a few others. I don't know that it's the most accurate, but it certainly is the most fun to listen to. It's such a pain to change carts on the Prime that I haven't put the MLX back on, and I likely won't, but I would sure hate to see you rule out their entire line. Their stuff is amazing at any price, and then you add in that factor I can't imagine getting that much quality sound for so little money. That being said, I haven't tried anything that sells for over $1100.