What's the exact problem with this record?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Hail Vinyl!, Aug 29, 2016.

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  1. Hail Vinyl!

    Hail Vinyl! Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Hi. I've uploaded a video to my YouTube channel featuring one item from my LP collection, and it has a defect that I've always been curious about. It's not a scratch, but it produces a scratchy noise during the first three minutes or so of each side because of a warp. It can be spotted on the video while listening. Just curious, since I know it can't be fixed. Thank you in advance for your input and this is the video:

     
  2. Maestro63

    Maestro63 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Georgia
    :tiphat:The defect is simply polish jazz. You ever seen how many of those guys it takes to screw in a lightbulb:laugh:
     
  3. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    To begin, a disclosure: I couldn't hear the defect on my computer speakers (because they are very cheap+nasty).

    If the problem is cause by a warp, the problem could be with your cartridge having difficulty tracking this area on the disk, or the warp is causing a resonance in your tonearm. There are possible two solutions.

    First, some have been able to remove warps by heating the disk between glass sheets in an oven for a period, and letting it cool slowly; I believe there has been a device invented and sold to do this. There will be lots of information/guides/etc on this on the internet.

    Secondly, different carts/arms are more/less able to track and reproduce warped records. Another turntable may give better results.
     
  4. MikeInFla

    MikeInFla Glad to be out of Florida

    Location:
    Kalamazoo, MI
    I did hear it and you can see it too. The tonearm pulls inward when it makes the sound. Honestly, it isn't that noticeable and probably wouldn't bother me too bad but it is probably the warp pulling the tonearm "in" that is causing it.
     
  5. Rick Bartlett

    Rick Bartlett Forum Resident

    sounds like its been left on a heat source, causing the warble and the distorted section...
     
  6. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Ah Ha! What you have there my fellow hi fi friend is a sun warp. The vinyl literally shrinks laterally and warps. The scratchy-hissy noise can not be fixed as you said. Your turntable and cartridge sound great and appear to be tracking perfectly. No turntable, No cartridge will ever offer any improvement. Nice record, great music and sound, but you'll need to replace the record.

    A sun warp occurs often at yard sales, records in boxes... as only the upper part of the LP exposed to the sun, warps.

    rock on,
    Steve VK
     
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  7. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    I have the same problem with two or three records, all bought new and never exposed to direct sunlight. Clearly a kind of pressing defect, but really can't say for sure how and what went wrong between vinyl and the stamper.
     
  8. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Hey Jimi,
    Likewise I am no expert on stampers and what can go wrong, maybe this type of warp is possible. But a lot can go wrong in transit to the warehouse, then again to the retailer. The trailer can get extremely hot. Warehouses can be very hot on top shelves especially. The vinyl will absorb heat from the hottest point in the box. The sun warp does exactly that. The sun heats the jacket edge, and the heat quickly gets absorbed by the vinyl and migrates inward. I believe this can happen to new records in a sealed box too. If the vinyl gets hot enough, there will be lateral and vertical deformation as we see in the video. The lateral deformation causes the scratchy noise, the more common vertical warp does not.
     
  9. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    Hey fridge :),
    Just like I said, I really don't know. Fact is I don't see my cartridge or stylus wobble while this happens. I remember an inspection I did at the point using a strong magnifying glass to no avail. Maybe some USB microscope could reveal groove defects, maybe not. I definitely don't have an answer to the OP post, I share his curiosity for sure.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  10. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    The op's record makes more of a swishing noise. I have heard pressing defects sound similar, but more of a crackle. I have in my collection non-warped records which make that cyclic crackle, some I had purchased new in the 80's. Motown records from the 80's had this defect quite often.

    Do your records sound exactly like the OP's or more like a crackle?

    I have encountered many sun warps in one particular batch of 12 inch singles which were at a yard sale. The records are otherwise NM, many unplayed, but the sun warped records make the same swishing noise, and the arm follows the deformation of the record... that small "jerk" inward. many of them had to be tossed. I have also other records with this same deformation, and same sound, and I just throw them out. The sun warp has that characteristic curl at the edge, and often lateral deformation. Bottom line, they're toast!
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  11. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Fridge, lol :righton::cool:
     
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  12. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    I really would like to answer, but 1) I have to go back home from holidays 2) scratch my head a lot to remember, even vaguely, which record was it 3) listen to many records, trying to locate the culprits. This is time risky, since chances are I start listening for the defect, it's not there, but the music is so good that I can't stop until the end of the side 4) after finding at least one, try to understand if it sounds more like a swish or a crackle.

    I remember it more like a crackle than a swish, anyway...
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  13. grimreaper46

    grimreaper46 New Member

    Location:
    manchester
    Not clear on my computer speakers bit a couple of things spring to mind. Damaged groove. Have you tied having it cleaned? Secondly, is the warp bad enough such that the body of the Cartridge actually touches the vinyl.

    You can get rid of warps (if you are brave). There is a professional bit of kit you can use, for example:
    How to Use »

    I have done this using two suitable tiles.
     
  14. NOTE: Common vinyl will shrink as well as warp when heated, often beyond repair. On the other had, many "virgin vinyls" (the "see through" black) will not shrink when warped and some may even be repairable using the heat and pressure method. I made this discovery when trying to deliberately destroy a virgin vinyl record that my friend had replaced because it was warped and in doing so I ended up making the warped one a bit better than it has been. I then proceeded to do the same experiment with a throwaway record on common non transparent black plastic and it shrank and warped beyond playability. The cheap vinyl also has microscopic air bubbles trapped within and the excessive heat brings them to the surface making it noisy upon playback. That is perhaps one reason why virgin vinyl records are claimed to have a longer playing life.
     
  15. Wally Swift

    Wally Swift Yo-Yoing where I will...

    Location:
    Brooklyn New York
    Luckily it's not a Novi Singers album!
     
  16. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    A warp changes the stylus rake angle, possibly to the degree where it's audible. But I don't think that's the problem. The warp makes that particular spot on the vinyl more prone to wear and damage over the years, so you'll get a "scrape" kind of noise at the warp. Summing to mono had no effect on it. The only fix is a flat copy of the record. But even then if it's a pressing defect it might be on every copy.

    If you think that's bad, you should have seen the Russian albums I worked on a few years ago. Worst pressings EVER. (And trying to have a conversation on the phone with a Russian pianist was absolutely hilarious.)
     
  17. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Reason #3 is the best, happens to me all the time when doing a play grade... intended to be only a spot play!
     
  18. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    The op's record was taken to a sunny beach by a caring owner, a nice pleasant vacation for that record. The owner should have applied more sunscreen.

    Actually the cause for warps is important, and this helps in prevention of warps by proper care and storage. In the case of the OP's record defect, this warp is a rather different kind of warp. The record is deformed laterally and vertically. The sound is unique to the "sun warp", and of course the sun isn't a record's best friend. What surprises me, I found nothing online anywhere on the sun warp. This isn't uncommon, as many records have been offered at yard sales in direct sunlight. This is what happens when in the sun long enough, on a hot day or a low humidity brilliantly sunny day.

    It matters not so much that the warp crackles or "whooshes", just that the OP is curious to know what's causing this rather strange sound. And it's kinda important to understand if this was a stamper defect, or if the record has been damaged.

    Sun warps are a little different than the more common warp. The "sun warp" makes this exact sound. The less severe warp begins as a curl at the record edge, which may not affect play (but still annoying) More severe sun warps will deform laterally and we get a partially melted groove and the "whoosh" sound.
     
  19. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Asking if you please could take a close look at the warp, and tell us if the groove appears partially melted? I am placing the probability without any margin for error that it does. BTW I'm enjoying the music!
     
  20. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Damn you @Hail Vinyl! I read your thread yesterday thinking ¨good I don't have that problem with any of my records¨ and today I played one and kaboom ! there it was; the same very problem, audible in between most tracks. When I flipped to side 2, I noticed the hole was not a snug fit for the spindle and remembered that back in the 00's when I bought it I'd had to enlarge the hole with a screwdriver, and careful as I thought I'd been, I had enlarged it a little too much, literally causing the problem.

    Now can anyone tell me if there is a fix for this ? I can center pretty well by eye and the problem is not that audible, but just in case, you know....:realmad:
     
  21. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Don't think there's fix for it Wax. In this case, it appears this may be something that went wrong with the stamper, or process. A smaller stylus may help, but makes no sense just for playing one record.
     
  22. Hail Vinyl!

    Hail Vinyl! Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I've just inspected the record with a magnifying glass and I don't see anything that looks like some kind of groove damage.
     
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  23. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Interesting, as this kind of warp in my experience shows physical melting to some degree. The melted appearance is superficial, a different kind of gloss. And of course the record has lateral deformation. (the more usual warp is vertical only) Also look for a curled edge or cupping near the edge. The curled edge also loses its mirror-like gloss, and will have a texture to it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
  24. Hail Vinyl!

    Hail Vinyl! Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Yes, that's there. It's the only thing I noticed. The edge of the record has some kind of shiny texture.
     
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