When did John decide to leave The Beatles/what was the "final straw"?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by The Doctor, Dec 5, 2017.

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  1. johnny moondog 909

    johnny moondog 909 Beatles-Lennon & Classic rock fan

    Well this is the kind of thing I wish we talked about. Instead of ...

    Arnie Harrison plays on Instant Karma, but it's not apparent. There is no Beatle George sounding guitar or Beatles harmonies.

    To me it would be interesting to know if Harrison helped shape anything about the texture, arrangement or what he did, besides banging a few piano-guitar chords in unison with several other players.

    I love Instant Karma it has some Beatley elements, but mostly it sounds like pure Lennon & Spector, it's fascinating to get a peek at what a Spector produced Beatles album could've sounded like. Let it be was a patch & repair job.. but 10-12 new songs as excellent as Karma would have been a different level. Imagine if Maybe I'm Amazed, Every Night & Come & Get it from Paul & Karma, Love & Mother from John & ATMP & What is life from George. That would have been something. Even without George Martin.
     
  2. Arnold Grove

    Arnold Grove Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Who is this "Arnie Harrison" fellow that you mention as playing on "Instant Karma"? A long-lost brother of George? ;)
     
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  3. Ern

    Ern Senior Member

    Location:
    Portugal
    About John's participation on George's songs, I posted this on another thread:

    As for the absence of John on George's songs on the later years, well he played on While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Mark says that he played lead guitar (later overdubed by Clapton), and Mal on one of the Beatles Monthly books, says he and George played acoustic guitars on it;

    He participated with the sound effects on Piggies and maybe backing vocals;

    As for Long, Long, Long and Savoy Truffle, I bet he took a small break from the sessions (2 to 7 October 1968) as the others Beatles did during the recording of the White Album. For instance George and Ringo went to California from 7-18 June 1968; Paul went to to LA from 20-25 June 1968; George went to Greece from 17-21 August 1968, so I guess John took a small break from 2-7 October 1968, when the basic track takes of those songs, and Martha My Dear, were recorded;

    He played slide guitar on For You Blue;

    He played on Old Brown Shoe, even if his guitar part was later wiped, and from Martin's production notes he played the overdubed organ with George, which is very plausible, since he worked closely with him that day (18 April 1969), overdubbing plenty of guitars to I Want You;

    He played piano on Something;

    He was recovering from the car accident when they recorded Here Comes The Sun, so he couldn't be there.

    He was in Denmark when I Me Mine was recorded.

    I don't think he avoided George's songs on purpose, but I don't know what was on John's mind around that period, to be sure about it.
     
  4. beatleroadie

    beatleroadie Forum Resident

    I wish John would have sung harmony/screams on "Wah-Wah". Would have been epic. Still love the song though.
     
  5. coniferouspine

    coniferouspine Forum Resident

    Having given this question a GREAT deal of thought, my own personal feeling is that for better or worse, a lot of important stuff got sorted out in John Lennon's head, during the plane ride back from India....or in the very last days and hours leading up to it (the mayhem of what happened, the accusations, and trying to leave India).

    My second pick for "final straw" would be the night of July 19th, 1968, the "Sexy Sadie" sessions, which sound like they were pretty awful.

    Mainly, Lennon seems to have come back from India in mid-April with a new perspective on Cynthia, a new perspective on Yoko, a new perspective on the Beatles, and a new perspective on virtually ALL of his personal and business relationships. Geoff Emerick (who some people may say is a faulty source) remembers "Hey Bulldog" from February 1968 (very last sessions pre-India) as the last time he felt the Beatles had that magical group cohesion in the studio, where everyone was enthusiastic, on the same page, and all contributing at a very high level.

    It looks from the outside, rather like a person snapping into focus or having a major cathartic "event" that suddenly wakes them up and turns them around. From that moment on, after he gets back from India, Lennon seems to me like a man getting his affairs in order, with the prospect in mind of leaving the Beatles behind, for real. Like anything big, it takes some time, with a bit of a zig-zagging and weaving here and there. But taken as a whole, as a zig-zagging trajectory (like a stock market graph) when viewed from afar it eventually produces a straight line away from the Beatles (if you get what I mean).

    > Cynthia was OUT, Yoko was IN (sadly, young Julian was a terrible casualty of this).
    > The Maharishi was OUT, idols and father figures were OUT, Yoko was IN.
    > Brian Epstein was OUT, Dick James and the old guard were OUT, and Allen Klein would soon (eventually) be IN.
    > Kenwood was OUT, squatting and bouncing from one place to another was IN.
    > And to a lesser extent, Paul was OUT, the Beatles were OUT, and Yoko was VERY IN.

    I get the feeling that after India, John sorta woke up from a deep slumber of sorts, that had started in 1966-ish around "Strawberry Fields" or maybe even earlier, around the "bigger than Jesus" debacle or even longer ago. He was in a personal slump for a long time there, not very happy, detached from his marriage, disillusioned with fame, and for better or worse in early 1968 he suddenly started to take things directly into his own hands to change. And it wasn't always pretty.

    The timeline: Straight back from the flight from India, he dispatches his marriage to Cynthia, decides to go "all in" on Yoko, and plows into "Revolution," one of his most controversial songs, especially if you take it in context with the long bizarre coda with heavy avant-garde contributions from Yoko that eventually became "Revolution #9".

    Then, after several consecutive days of taking LSD and smoking marijuana, Lennon convenes a board meeting at the Beatles' business HQ, to inform the others that he felt he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Somewhere in this time, he creates an odd wood sculpture called "The Private Mind of John Lennon" that features the rough lyrics to "Sexy Sadie" carved into a block of wood; and people around him at the time remember the block of wood, and report that he spent a lot of time "fiddling" intently with it and gouging at it. Carrying it around with him constantly, and so forth.

    During the all-night July 19th sessions for "Sexy Sadie" - Lennon becomes irritable, he sounds like he's on a really bad high, and he has something that kinda sounds to me almost a teensy bit like a mini-mental breakdown, when he goes into "Brian Epstein Blues," which is one of the straight up meanest, darkest most un-funny things he's ever been associated with. He can't keep steady time, he bangs on his guitar and repeatedly screams "&%$ a Duck, &%$ a Duck" and "go, Ringo, go" ....he sounds to me like he's more than just a little unglued there. It seems to have gone on for hours, but the little bits we've heard, it just sounds awful, like the sort of thing you just don't recover easily from -- for everyone who was in the room, there's no un-ringing that bell. He's just out of it, almost Syd Barrett-ish, like a person who is falling apart.

    Now WHAT specifically got Lennon into that fragile and tormented state of mind during that particular session, I have no idea. But the Beatles also nastily turned against George Martin, that same night, and that was the time they really rebelled against Martin and everyone else on the other side of the studio glass, maybe even a little bit permanently. It really came to a head, when George vocally chewed out "Mr. Martin" for being uptight, that was an important moment. It basically tipped the tables and sidelined Martin, he had no real control over them, from that point forward.

    Then, by the very closing end of late 1968, Lennon is openly co-writing songs with Yoko, including one that starts with the words: "Oh my love, for the first time in my life, my eyes are wide open," and ends with "everything is clear in our world." And post-India the true solo recordings start really flowing, whether it's Two Virgins, "Instant Karma," Unfinished Music, Plastic Ono Band live gigs and events, Gibraltar, Amsterdam Hilton, etc. Lennon later claimed he had wanted all his songs on one side of Abbey Road and all of Paul McCartney's on the other, which to me is pretty much a textbook definition of someone who is checked out, doesn't want to be here, trying to leave, and NOT a team player.

    I think that further intimate details about the plane ride back from India and the aftermath of that particular period, is one of the things I am waiting the most eagerly to read, in the never-ending wait for Mark Lewisohn's next books to be finished. To me, everything else that happened after those crucial and weird events of April 1968, is really just the long process of gradually tearing the whole thing down, and moving on from it; but that happens slowly, like steering a boat that takes a long time to stop or to turn its course.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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  6. Neil Anderson

    Neil Anderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    didn't know that George addressed him as "Mr. Martin." Pretty cold after having worked together for 6 years. Of course, GM stated that he was "rather beastly" to GH, so there was a reason for it.
     
  7. angelees

    angelees Forum Resident

    Location:
    Usa
    It’s definitely Paul’s song, but I thought he helped on a couple lyrics. I read it somewhere, but it might be wrong. The point though was they were getting along during this period and having fun in the studio.
     
  8. parman

    parman Music Junkie

    Location:
    MI. NC, FL
    John decided to leave when he decided he wasn't getting enough money.
     
  9. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    I've always been curious as to exactly how many guitars John and George overdubbed onto "I Want You"...it couldn't have been that many, given the 8 track facilities at the time. Lewisohn in Recording Sessions makes it sound like Lennon and Harrison were trying to outdo Jimmy Page in the Guitar Army stakes...
    I remember the first time my best friend heard "Oh My Love" he rolled his eyes and said, "So Cynthia meant nothing to you then?"
    Yeah, pretty safe to say there was not a lot of love lost between Georges Harrison and Martin- note that outside the "reunions" of "All Those Years Ago" and Anthology after 1970 they never worked together again.
    In those days none of The Beatles were getting enough money, just lots of funny paper, as Paul put it so well.
     
  10. seacliffe301

    seacliffe301 Forum Resident

    Wow. That's deep.
    I always liked her.
     
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  11. seacliffe301

    seacliffe301 Forum Resident

    Hmm. I do recall a comment by John somewhere that disputes this.
    He described that Yoko was at the session for "Hey Bulldog", (which may have been her first), and that he was embarrassed that they were working on something that he felt was so "weak" in terms of content.

    I took special notice of this as "Hey Bulldog" has always been one of my all time favorites.
     
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  12. Jose Jones

    Jose Jones Outstanding Forum Member

    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan
    He acknowledges in one of the big interviews he did (not sure if it was Playboy or Rolling Stone) that Paul did indeed have a strong finish at the end there. Songs like Get Back, Let It Be and Long & Winding Road have lasted for decades now and have become standards. I don't know of anybody still raving about the Ballad Of John & Yoko, despite it being a "hit" then. He also had to admit that "Something" was just as good as anything he or Paul wrote at that time.
     
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  13. Arnold Grove

    Arnold Grove Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    First off, it is possible, as I obviously wasn't there. But I think someone else would have mentioned it if it had occurred at that time. Also, that week of sessions in February 1968 was acknowledged to be a very fun week for all involved. So I'd be surprised that Yoko would have been around---but maybe she just visited for 10 minutes and then left.

    Or maybe John got confused with another session, which isn't out of the realm of possibilities.

    As mentioned before, Yoko was at one of the sessions in September 1967 when the Beatles were recording "The Fool On The Hill". She attended the session along with 2 Japanese journalists. So maybe she also popped in at another time too (pre-White Album).
     
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  14. seacliffe301

    seacliffe301 Forum Resident

    I'm not sure that any response or explanation was expected or required. It was standard procedure by John at this point not to be involved with sessions for George's songs.
    Why would " I Me Mine" be any different?
     
  15. johnny moondog 909

    johnny moondog 909 Beatles-Lennon & Classic rock fan

    Arnie Harry Harrison is a disgruntled former child actor & son of late Sir George Martin's swimming pool cleaner Hiram hi Harrison. Young H believes undue Influence was used to hide profits from an offshore Taiwanese pig knuckle factory as "Pool Supplies" . Typo sorry

    John Lennon either in the 1980 Playboy interview, or another late period interview. He said HEY BULLDOG is a great sounding track that means nothing. So while agreeing it "sounded good" he was disavowing it as just a throwaway.
     
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  16. PlushFieldHarpy

    PlushFieldHarpy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indiana
    Except "Come Together" is played on the radio now more than any of those of Paul's.
    Lennon could be very mediocre, but he was always capable of hitting one or two of the ballpark, which probably annoyed Paul to no end.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  17. seacliffe301

    seacliffe301 Forum Resident

    The details, as I recall from long ago, somewhat follow this... They were slated to shoot footage to support "Lady Madonna", which was scheduled very last minute (this may explain why they were at Olympic as opposed to EMI). Rather than mime to "Lady Madonna", it was suggested that they actually try and record something constructive. Perhaps by John?
    "Hey Bulldog" was then suggested, and was completed at that session.
    Yoko, as I recall, was not there as John's companion like White Album sessions, but merely popped in. No doubt she was invited, but quite possibly didn't stick around long, as you've suggested.
    I wish I could recall the source of this and more detail, but it was decades ago.
     
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  18. Jose Jones

    Jose Jones Outstanding Forum Member

    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan
    I haven't heard that song on the radio since the 20th century.
     
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  19. PlushFieldHarpy

    PlushFieldHarpy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indiana
    That's something to brag about.
    I heard it not too long ago. Admittedly, it was the Aerosmith version.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  20. beatleroadie

    beatleroadie Forum Resident

    I believe Yoko got into that Sept. 1967 session with the Japanese journalists she had befriended in London. Somehow they had talked their way into getting a brief interview with the band at Abbey Road. But Yoko was there attempting to connect with Paul (having been told he's the single Beatle who's always involved in the art scene in London) to try to get him to help fund an art project of hers. This was before she turned her attention to John after seeing him at Indica Gallery in November 1967. And she certainly was not at the Hey Bulldog session in early 68.

    Other than a few times that Yoko turned up at events where John was, and once when she got in the car with John and Cynthia after an event, John and Yoko didn't spend time together or consumate a relationship until a month after India, and just before Paul and John set off for the US to promote the Apple launch (the night that John and Yoko first slept together they recorded vocalizing over a bed of tape loops that John and Pete Shotton had made months prior--Later released as "Two Virgins"). Upon returning from New York, John moves out of Kenwood, starts on LSD heavily again after giving it up prior to India, and mixing it with heroin, hence his erratic mood swings and "Jesus Reincarnated" persona during the White Album sessions.

    I would never fault Yoko for any decisions John made in regard to how he treated his own band/bandmates or what substances he put in his body, but this summer of '68 seems to be without a doubt the fulcrum on which the fate of the Beatles tipped.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  21. Chuckee

    Chuckee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Upstate, NY, USA
    It was the number one played song not log ago on Spotify.
    'Come Together' Is Most Popular Beatles Song on Spotify



    I think Here Comes The Sun was #1 on an itunes list a few years back.
     
  22. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

    Location:
    NC USA
    John said that 'Something' was the best song on the album.
     
  23. johnny moondog 909

    johnny moondog 909 Beatles-Lennon & Classic rock fan

    Half planet Earth said that. The other half said Here Comes The Sun.
     
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  24. Arnold Grove

    Arnold Grove Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I think this occurred one year earlier, in November 1966.
     
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  25. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Come Together, Don't Let Me Down, I Want You, Because, equal collaboration on I've Gotta Feelin'.

    I would guess Come Together would be in the top five most recognizable Beatles songs for the general public.

    I don't think much of the Ballad of John and Yoko either, but I doubt John felt he was standing in the shadow of Paul and George in 1969.
     
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