Where to place speakers in a long skinny room ?

I am turning my game room into a vinyltorium and would appreciate advice on where to place speakers (tower speakers, not yet acquired). The room is about 19 ft long and 13 ft wide, with windows on one end and open to a balcony on the other end. I want to use Ikea Kallax units or the Walmart H&G equivalents to mix and match 2x2, 2x3 and/or 2x4 units to hold my album and CD collection and a big screen tv.

The only thing set in stone is the TV needs to be centered across from the sofa. The stereo components will go on a rack (also not yet acquired) , which can be placed along the wall where ever is best. My question is : would it be better to place the speakers on either side of the TV, toed in from the end of the wall , or somewhere in between ? Where the speakers go kind of determines what type of Ikea setup to use.

First time posting images so hopefully this works. Any advice/comments appreciated.

Here is the wall...
http://imgur.com/eCc2anM

Here is the whole room...
http://imgur.com/TfCWChO

Here is one setup with the speakers towards the center of the room...
http://imgur.com/jx8Yvgq

And with the speakers at the ends...
http://imgur.com/2wxrLrE

 

The biggest problem with #2 isn't the placement of the speakers but the fact you're sandwiching them between record racks. I'd do something closer to #1, but try to put more distance between the speakers and the racks without having the speakers be too far apart.
Is there anywhere else in the room a record rack could go? Maybe under that row of bottles to the right of the sofa?

 

If you're not running a center, configuration 1 has the speakers WAAAAAY apart, I don't get a good feeling about that as a loudspeaker engineer. Also, please CENTER THE SPEAKERS ON THE TV, ooooh, maybe I'm just visually and audibly sensitive but I don't like that off-centering at all.

If you have the space-I can't tell from the drawings where the walls end-maybe do something like #1 but
- Put the speakers outside the equipment rack for some more spacing but not hugely wide
- On the left, put another rack or another something so the speakers are CENTERED ON THE TV (do you sense a theme here?)

And yes, do put the speakers flanking the TV, not somewhere else. Many programs are nicer through the speakers.

 

Usually one goes for an equilateral triangle or close to it ... say your listening position is 10' from the TV, then the speakers should be something like 10' apart, usually I think folks go for a little closer together like 8'.

Moving them out into the room a little will help (IMO) with soundstaging/imaging and depth perception, but also may reduce the bass loading in the room, which may be a good thing. Experiment with toe in (point directly toward your head, then rotate outward (both speakers equally) toward firing straight ahead. Somewhere in between or at these 'extremes' the sound should lock in.

Maybe this is a bit too general about speaker placement but if you haven't done this before it's a good place to start. Cardas has some setup recommendations based on the 'golden ratio' (1.601:1 or something). That's another method (there are many). The German guy that ran Audio Physik (sp?) used to recommend 'ultra wide' placement like your drawing seems to show, and the listening position against and centered on the opposite wall (this was for long skinny rooms like yours, speakers placed on the long wall). Not having side walls close to the speakers is also a good thing, should produce better soundstage/imaging etc..

Others recommend placing on the short wall with seat near center but not AT center (modes add up there, not good). I used this kind of arrangement in my previous room, with speakers set up in the near field (about 7' apart but 6' or so from my head).

The issue with ultra wide placement is center fill, you may not get a good focused center image (of the main singer in a rock band, for example). I'd get the speakers first and find the best spots for them, then pick shelves to fit that arrangement, not the other way around.

 

Looking at the pics, since there's a large opening behind the listening position (and on the RHS too, maybe/hopefully another on the LHS (symmetrical)) the space is actually 'longer' than you think. That's all good. Should be pretty easy to get great sound in this room IMO. As I said and I think head_unit agrees, the speakers should be centered on the TV (!) and further apart than the edge of the TV, but NOT all the way to the ends of the wall. Try the triangle arrangement first, then move the speakers apart (keeping the TV CENTERED ) until the center (audio) image gets 'blurry' or indistinct ... then move them back together a little! I guess if the sound is indistinct with them 10' apart (using the 10' listening distance) move them closer together ...

If you want gear advice, tell us how much you want to spend, and we'll recommend you spend 2x that or so ... but you'll get some good advice! Receiver? If you want to use it, great, give model/power output etc. and I'm sure folks can recommend speakers. Maybe the Klipsches in your sketch would go very well with a vintage receiver, I think probably so. I was thinking about those with a Denon AVR for my daughter and SIL, late 1st anniversary present when they move to their new apartment ... a mellower amp/receiver seems (just from reading) like it would be a good match.

 

Good advice all around. Will definitely have the TV centered . Listening to records is priority #1 and watching movies is priority #2.

Also I am re-thinking the order in which I do things - set up sound system first , find the best place for the speakers, then buy the Ikea units to fit - not the other way around. I am anxious to set this thing up but its pretty obvious now that I should take my time and do it right.

As far as gear, I gave almost everything away years ago (argh) so am starting mostly from scratch. The only component I have right now is a vintage Sansui 9090DB receiver which puts out about 125 wpc. I like the idea and look of tower speakers - the Klipsches pictured were just screen-grabbed for illustration purposes -would be most interested in recommendations for a room like this. My budget for speakers and a turntable is around $2K, so maybe $1200-$1400 of that for speakers.

 

That's some good advice right there!

RoundandRound - we're not too far apart, I live in Spring.

 

timztunz, pleased to meet you neighbor !

 

Glad to provide my thoughts in this matter, and hey guys, I grew up in Spring Branch (1958-1978), moved to Waco for tech school (until 1980) and have been in CA since.

I have a HS friend who lives in Spring, he's not into audio per se but seems to have a nice rig on his Harley (and his wife does too, she rides as well).

Anyway, I don't know how well they'd match up with your Sansui, certainly should be powerful enough (check if rated into 4 ohms, which many "8 ohm" speakers can reach to), but I recently bought some Monitor Audio Silver 8 speakers. Got the scratch and dent versions from that famous high end audio retailer ... Crutchfield! Also a last year's model Marantz AVR for $999 (was $1999), am very happy with them. The speakers were $1600 with no tax and free shipping IIRC. I know the shipping was free anyway.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-8-loudspeaker#LCe4fmTr9LTMjeYM.97 I got the 'walnut' versions, which came without the original equipment spikes (I didn't want to use them anyway). The feet are well-engineered, the spikes screw in separately, and the feet have soft (teflon?) pads on them which are good for wood or in my case tile floors.

These are excellent $2000 MSRP Class B (Stereophile rating) speakers, with an added "$$$" for good value. I can't say if you'd need a sub with them (there's a model 10 with larger woofers) but probably not. If so one can add a powered sub to any system, even using the Sansui. (Connect some parallel cables from the speaker output terminals on the amp, to 'speaker level' inputs on the sub).

Like I said, on paper I also like the Klipsch models, they have a 'reputation' for being a little bright, so the (possibly 'mellower') Sansui may be an excellent match too. Of course there are many other choices. The Silver 8s do go to 4 ohms, so good to have a 4 ohm rated amp. My Marantz AVR isn't really rated for that ... but seems to be OK so far, I don't crank the sound too much.

 

SO there I go, suggesting you stretch your budget!

I've read good things about the Ortofon Blue ($236) and Bronze ($440) even paired with the 'lowly' automatic Denon player. My friend with vintage receiver and etc. loves his Bronze.

Shoot, my Silver 8s are actually $1700 http://www.crutchfield.com/S-mJzDsjwoWYG/p_893SLVR8W/Monitor-Audio-Silver-8-Walnut.html?cc=07&tp=185 and the TT/Cart combo http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DP300F-with-2M-Bronze is $759 ... so ... $2500, only a 'little' stretch.

I'm thinking about going for the Denon/Bronze combo sometime actually, getting lazy in my old age. It's also available with Blue or Red for less money, but the Bronze to me seems worth the extra money (OK, just from reading).

 

I agree with your suggestion of adding a sub to the S8s, if necessary, rather than getting the larger S10s. However, that is only if one has decent bass management facilities to integrate the sub.

 

I'd look around for used speakers on Craigslist. I got a pair of Totem Rainmakers for 650.00, I know they are monitors but they sound great. That would allow you to get a better table than the Denon. Look at Rega and Music hall. Lots of choice in the 1,000 category.
Soundstage direct, Audioadvisor, Music direct all have good deals if you don't have any brick and mortar around you. they also have close outs and refurbs.
Most of all take your time and you can put together a really good system within your budget.

good luck
mdr

 

I've got your room configuration in Brazil and second system. Check out the link in my sig to see one shelving idea. But I think you have the potential for a great sound.

 

How goes it my brothers from other mothers?

 

Thanks again for all the advice. I have had great luck on Craigslist including scoring the lightly used Ekornes Stressless sofa and recliners in the link above. So maybe I can find a good used pair a speakers there, otherwise I'll just have to increase my budget

If I go with a subwoofer, I assume it should be placed in the center of the wall, maybe under the TV ?

timztunz - very nice setup !

 

The speakers placed either side of the TV would be the best config. The other option with them spaced so far apart doesn't look good at all. As mentioned before, try to space them the same distance as your seating distance to create an equilateral triangle. I know this may not look good but try to get them away from that back wall too and make sure the front of the speakers is more forward than any gear racks/shelving as this will help tremendously.

I have a very similar set-up (length of room twice as long as the width) and it works really well. I do have my speakers out from the wall by a good 2ft though, but even 1ft should do wonders, rather than having them snuggled up.

 

Following up from a few weeks ago here is an update and another question.

I decided to go with a Rotel RA1570B integrated amp, a Music Hall MMF5.1 turntable and a pair of B&W CM8 S2 speakers. Yes the budget got stretched , but you only live once .
I am reconfiguring the room so that the speakers will be ~ 12 feet apart, centered on either side to the TV and pretty close to an equilateral triangle distance from the listening spot.
I will move the speakers out from the wall as far as the wife will allow and play with the angles to hopefully find the sweet spot.

The speakers come with plinths and both spikes and rubber feet. Based on what I have read in other threads, every situation is different but it sounds like the spikes are the best option in second floor room with Carpet over a plywood subfloor.

I am looking at the Salamander Archetype 5-shelf rack to hold the components with the turntable on the top shelf. Before I order and assemble this rack and load it up I am wondering if the rack should also be spiked into the carpet using the optional Salamander spikes ? Seems like the rack would be more stable with spikes, but I don't know how sensitive this location is going to be to vibration/footsteps etc and how that will affect the turntable. Should I spike the rack and then focus on isolating the turntable as a followup ?

 

Yeah, I wouldn't go wider than an equilateral triangle. I actually tend to like a little wider for records, with digital (that has more precise imaging) I like the speakers a little closer together to bring everything into focus. But records tend to be a little 'bigger' sounding for lack of a better descriptor, and I think the speakers a little farther apart still sounds great. Based on your pictures, I would go somewhere halfway between your ideas. The ones close to the TV will not be far enough apart, IMO, whereas the other option your imaging is really going to fall apart because it's just way too wide. I would place the speakers first, that's more important than the furniture. Then do furniture or stack some milk crates around them for record storage.

Last suggestion is of course room treatments, always always ALWAYS a good idea.

 

AMEN !!!! Hey, nice to read this after a few weeks, seems like some great gear there! Should give excellent sound. I can't say anything about the rack, don't know ... hopefully the TT will be OK with either spikes or not. Some folks use wall mount platforms, may be an option if there's skipping when walking around.

I was going to discuss replacement carts, but the 'Music Hall' Magic 3 (comes with new MMF-5.1s apparently) is $350 separately, seems like it should be darn good (and is made by Ortofon). Seems like the hot MM cart these days (to me) is the Ortofon M2 Bronze ($440) ... but may be about the same sound wise. If yours was 'used' may be worth considering upgrading the cart at some point (Xmas is coming up!).

Aha, now that you've got 'the bug' ... pay attention at some point to cables. Yes, I know, all the arguments etc. about this and that, but I heard a very distinct difference (and I do think it was for the better) when I put in my Analysis Plus Oval 9 speaker cables, and more recently, got a Shunyata Venom 3 on sale for $99 (demo). The Venom 3 into my Parasound preamp really gave a distinct improvement, I was really surprised. Similarly for the Oval 9s many years ago (and I don't feel a huge need to upgrade those).

 

The speakers need to be closer as in #3. Your listening position will be approx 10 feet away from the speakers (in a 13 ft wide room) so your speakers should be from 8 ft to 10 ft apart with a little toe in, just as a starting point. I do not think you'll need to deviate too much from that. Also the screen should be centered between the speakers.
This is a somewhat challenging room for sound, but the open back wall should help tame any bass resonances, or bass frequency modes.