Which 50s and 60s Van Gelder Blue Note recordings have the best AUDIO QUALITY?

The thread on Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder had me confused. Many people were saying that all Blue Notes are not 'audiophile' recordings.

While I agree that The Sidewinder is not my favorite Blue Note (from an audio standpoint), many other Van Gelder recordings stand out as having a very engaging and realistic presentation. To me, this has 'audiophile' written all over it.

The recent Music Matters and AP reissues make that even more evident, in my experience, and have made it possible to more easily compare the actual audio quality of the recordings. In previous times, it was far more difficult to assess when comparing originals (most in VG condition and many mono fold downs), Japan and other later reissues. These have pretty variable mastering. So now that there's a wealth of readily available consistently high quality editions of 50s and 60s Blue Notes out there, it's possibly easier to judge the actual recording.

Experts: in your opinion, which 1950s and 1960s Blue Note albums have the best audio quality?

Thanks!

 

I think most Blue Notes are good enough to be "audiophile recordings", but they are not at the top of the heap from that time period. The better Columbia, Verve, and Contemporary titles have it over the blue notes on sound. I think RVG's Prestige monos like Sonny Rollins "Saxophone Colossus" are RVG's best sound. Generally a lot of Blue notes only sound "good" rather than great to me. But if you want me to pick a couple- Canonball Adderly "Something else" (Hackensack), Wayne Shorter "Adam's Apple" (Englewood Cliffs). I only wish there had been more engineering variety in the recording of East Coast jazz- the bulk of it was done by one guy. I never liked "the sidewinder" much musically or recording wise, not Lee Morgans best work IMO.

 

I agree Cannonball Adderley - Somethin' Else sounds pretty wonderful.

 

Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers Moanin'
Sonny Clark Sonny Clark Trio
Grant Grant Green Street

 

Also, if people want to explain why they think a certain recording has the best sound, that would be quite interesting.

 

This mirrors my feelings almost exactly. The RVG mid-50s mono recordings from his family's living room in Hackensack and release on Prestige have an amazing tactile, you-are-there quality to the reeds and brass; that the drum timbres are amazingly real sounding. The later RVGs in stereo for Englewood Cliffs are fine, but generally I wouldn't count 'em among the greatest sounding records ever made, or even necessarily the greatest sounding jazz records of the era -- the piano and drums tend to be really boxy, the stereo spread tends to be really unnatural. Some of my favorite albums of the era, like, say Eric Dolphy's Out to Lunch cut for Blue Note, are kind of classic cases -- great music, but not such a good recording. But the Rollins like Work Time in particular, and the Miles quintet session that produced Workin'/Steamin'/Relaxin'/Cookin', RVG did for Prestige in the mid-50s sound really good to my ears.

 

As far as the Prestige monos by RVG it's like Chervokas says above. But you asked about Blue Note. Again like above poster says- the mono recordings done in his living room actually have a better instrumental timbre than many of his later Englewood cliffs sessions. Of those later englewood cliff sessions I like Adam's apple by wayne shorter because it sounds not as pinched and boxed up (I'm talking the unremastered US CD here)- Waynes Horn sounds a little fuller and more expansive than some others from around that time. For Comparison- I can pick out a well known and regarded Englewood cliffs Blue Note session that does not sound as good to me- Herbie Hancock "Maiden Voyage". Maiden Voyage is a pretty good example of what Rudy's Methods do to the sound of instruments (I'd say the same about "A Love Supreme" but we're talking Blue Note here), the sound is well up to snuff as far as home or portable listening, well enough to let you enjoy the music, but never will you think, yes that sounds like the real thing.

 

A few years ago I started buying RVG Remaster Blue Note CDs out of used bins. I was never familiar with the albums but I was never disappointed. I think I have most of them now.

 

Many thanks for the detailed information, I'm learning a lot.

Interesting you bring up Maiden Voyage, as I just recently got the AP reissue. Listening to it right after Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil, I noticed a marked difference in sound. Speak No Evil sounded quite good to me, other than the piano being a bit quiet. Maiden Voyage was not as impressive, sonically.

 

Of the later sessions (1966), I think that Joe Henderson's "Mode For Joe" has a great open and realistic sound.

 

Thanks! I have not heard that one, and will check it out.

 

I think they all sound great. The most important part is the mastering chain. Given the technology Van Gelder had back in the days, the mastering wasn't "audiophile" per se. Just listen to and compare the modern day remastered releases (Classic, Music Matters, Analogue Productions), and you will hear the difference. The modern releases are so much more revealing.

 

Somethin Else
Cool Struttin
Out To Lunch
Newk's Time
Bass On Top
Soul Call

Hmm, Do I write sonic favorites or musical favorites?

 

Most of the RVG Remasters sound atrocious, they scream with treble and are way too loud. Stay away from the RVG remasters, they generally suck, and just pick up original CDs or other issues of the same titles.

 

You like the classic records 200 gram Blue Notes? Some of the earliest 180g ones like "Something else" are pretty good. The later 200g ones, to me many are not better than older regular pressings. The classic records blue notes- I don't know listen to the hit hat and cymbals- something off there because the hi-hat/cymbals sound unlike the real thing, and different from other pressings, many of the classic records blue notes sound like they were eq's up some in that area, and Rudy had them already "hot" there to start with. The later music matters/AP ones avoid that anomaly, and have a more "modern" tonality that some like.
When I listen I think there is also a loss of space on some of these audiophile reissues. That's one thing I sometimes notice in going from the ones mastered from 50 plus year old tapes compared to previous pressings- the surrounding acoustic, air, and life are not as strong on the new reissues.

 

Doesn't it have a lot of tape saturation and even distortion when the horns play together?

 

All great albums...I'd agree that Bass on Top (Paul Chambers) is a beautiful sounding session. But Out to Lunch, at least, is no audiophile demonstration piece -- a pretty grainy sounding recording!

 

Glad you like BOT, too. I have the original monaural vinyl and the McMaster CD. Both sound great.
As for OTL, I suppose the 'grainy' sound, if any, came from the performances themselves.

 

Richard Davis does have a distinctively grainy sound -- he may be the only bassist you can always recognize from the first note. I put on Andrew Hill's Point of Departure the other day having forgotten who the rhythm section was. Took me about two seconds to recognize Richard Davis.

 

The Music Matters 45 of OTL sounds really good - definitely one of RVG's best from the Englewood era IMO.

 

I'll make a wholesale statement, which I usually hate to do, but I feel that the best sounding RVG's are those where the instrumentation is more sparse. For example, trio or quartet dates rather than quintets and sextets. However, larger ensembles could sound good if the writing was more "open", as in Tony Williams' Life Time. Where instruments invariably had more "sonic space" allotted to them.

When there was more individual or solo playing the sound really sorted itself much better than when there was dense unison or ensemble playing. This is an issue of the technology of the day and also likely due to some "loading" of the recording space. A solo pizzicato or arco bass figure could resolve quite well. Get three horns, rhythm section (sometimes with vibes) going and it was just too much for the space and gear. Forget about instruments like vibes in those situations. Some heavy overload at times.

Remember, Mingus would not let RVG record him.

Regarding the RVG remasters and "therockmans" comments, I was afraid to go there but since he opened the door: Engineers make decisions based on what they hear, of course. Has anyone here had their hearing tested of run through test tones to see what they can identify and how AGE is affecting their senses? Hearing (including mine) starts to roll-off quite quickly, especially if you've spent time behind the board, on stage or playing any kind of music. When Rudy started the remasters he was what, in his mid 70's??!!! Some of the more recent ones from 2007 have him making sonic judgement calls at age 83. With a MOUNTAIN of respect for his work, I posit that no ones hearing is up to the task at that age.

Same way if the room in which an engineer is working is not accurate. If they are sitting in a 60Hz suckout, they could add a bunch of 60, making it sound "boomy". If Rudy's 70-80+ year old ears are shelved at higher frequencies he would invariably add top end, hence the brightness of the RVG remasters.

 

I can' t compare the RVG reissue cds with original Blue Note' s, the MM or AP reissues but I don' t think they sound atrocious at all - they might be a bit bright but in general I think they sound very good .I think you should also take into consideration that the audiophile reissues cost almost ten times as much as the cds so you should expect them to sound better , but to say the cds sound atrocious is just not correct

 

As you say, with a few exceptions of several sessions in 1954 and 1955, he made no recording at RVG studio.
Did he purposely not do so? Were there any statement of him on this?

 

Yes, he infamously said that Rudy changed people's sound:
MINGUS: A Critical Biography by Brian Priestley, Da Capo Press (April 1, 1984), 340 pages, ISBN 0-306-80217-1

 

Mingus didn't like RVG because it had something to do with Van Gelder changing the sound of the musicians by the way he recorded. Or something along that line.