Which part of a playback chain has the biggest impact on sound? (a ranking)

Sorry, don't mean to pick on you here Randoms, but I'm going to zero in on a few things you've written...

This is a little vague (I'm finding a lot of the ideas posited in this thread to be vague, actually). What is "a better turntable than the Rega"? If we look at current turntable offerings (since this is what most buyers will be looking at), the P3 2016 is a very nice table and not exactly cheap. At about $1,000, if you purchase a balanced system it would work out to a system costing like $4,000. This table is smack dab in the middle of Rega's range, so is what the average person can probably afford. For this kind of money, IMO, the owner has every right to expect great sound and not a lot of compromises. Of course if one spends more they will get more (not a guarantee though). But I would hope we are entering the level of diminishing returns, where spending more than the Rega costs will yield relatively small improvements in sound but not anything earth shattering.

So, how much more than a Rega P3 should someone buy? RP6? RP8? RP10? Or don't even look at Rega, because someone else does it much better? Clearaudio? VPI? Well Tempered? I am curious to know if the P3 is a bad table that isn't pulling enough music out of the grooves or doing so in a musical enough manner and what exactly someone needs to spend to attain this.

Here again, I have to wonder what is meant by "giving of their best." Is it buying a high-end table with high-end performance? Or is it system setup with even a lower end table? If the latter I would argue that yes, of course, one would need to set up the table correctly. Proper cart installation and proper placement (isolation) for the table. I don't really see this as different than proper placement and set up of the speakers. Both things can and will dramatically impact sound quality and both are a must for the owner to get done.

Here is another vague idea. What is a "bad signal"? Are we talking Rega P3? I'm sure some would say "yes". Most probably would say "no". Or are we talking Crosely level tables? In which case, I would say let's throw this idea out. Not many here will be using such a table. If everyone here owns (at the very least) a P1/Debut Carbon level table with a 2M Red cart, are they getting a bad signal? If the answer is no, the signal is a quality signal, then I would suggest to you that turntables are almost like digital in that the differences are much smaller than they were decades ago (not saying different tables don't sound different, just that even on the lower end there are many quality options available). One can buy the table they like best and IMO their efforts are probably better off aimed at getting the right speakers to suit their goals.

Randoms, your discussion about active vs. passive crossovers just illustrates this. Would that not be a much more important decision than in choosing whether to get a Rega P3 or a Clearaudio Concept? Or even something higher up? Frankly, I think whether a system is active or passive defines it much more than what turntable they are using (so long as it's not a junk table). BTW, agree with your thoughts on crossovers. I'm not currently running a pair of actives but I am kicking the idea around.

 

Unfortunately, that's not true. Rega tables ring like a bell, the motor vibration -- especially without a motor controller to lower vibration -- is coupled to that ringing plinth, to which the arm also is coupled will feedback motor noise even as the tone is feeding needle energy into the plinth (so much so that the the plinth is acting as a soundboard -- check out the recent Stereophile review in which the reviewer put a stethoscope to the plinth and could hear music clear as day -- you can get a lot better performance than that with a different design, more inert materials, better motor isolation, better motor control. But often it costs a lot more -- you know, the retail price point these days for a motor controller for an AC synchronous turntable that drives both haves of the 90 degree out of phase signal with separate amplifiers, and ideally allows for trimming the phase between the to legs, and drops to voltage to reduce torque cogging after start up, etc.... made by the likes of Basis or Merrill for their tables is like $700 just for the motor controller. K&K had a kit in development to do something similar and it was going to retail for $700, that's a kit, no cost of assembly labor, and that's just for the motor controller. So it seems at these scale of production that it's not so easy to make a truly great sounding turntable at a cheap price. These are small batch projects -- despite the turntable revival it's still not a a mass market like the smart phono or bluetooth sound streamer market, and most of the sales are Crosley. And the differences that can be achieved reducing motor noise, strike me as pretty earth shattering actually in terms of freedom from mechanical noise, revelation of low level detail, revelation of expressive micro dynamics, soundstaging. To some people maybe that's a diminishing marginal return, to me it's the difference between sometimes just getting exhausted with all the noise of vinyl playback and just wanting to put on a CD to be free from it, and forgetting it's a record I'm listening to at all, and just hearing the music in the space in which it was recorded.

But it's really these design and performance elements, not brand and price, that make the difference. Because the prices and the brands don't really correlate to design differences. Absolutely the difference between one record playing rig and another record playing rig can be as substantial or more substantial than the difference between passive crossovers and a single amp; and active crossover with purpose designed amps per driver, in terms of grossly higher levels of noise, mistraking, and additive ringing.

 

For analogue guys...

#1) Speakers (analogue & digital).

2) TT & arm, cartridge! Correct headshell w/ gold Lutz leads.
3) Amplifier - the brain, absolutely vital.
(2-3 actually go together.)

4) CD player - a 'good one' is 'good enough'.

5) cables - for your specific system!

* Assuming the LP or CD is 'excellent'.

It's easy.

 

I think you've made some very valid comments, and I'll try and clarify for you - pleased you read the post closely enough to question it!

Firstly the Rega Planar 3 turntable, in all its variations, is a very good turntable. I haven't heard the latest version, but it still looks extremely similar to the original design. I tend to forget that it is 2017 and not 1997!

Compared to a turntable like a Roksan Xerxes or Linn Sondek, the Rega is clearly outperformed, and if records are your priority, I don't believe any amp or speakers can give you the improvement in isolation, timing, pitch stability, detail, dynamics, less intrusive pop and clicks, than moving from a Rega to a Linn, or a similar level of performance turntable.

In the early days Linn sat a Sondek on top of a speaker to show its isolation properties - it didn't cause problems. The Rega would feedback if you tried this.

With the Valhalla power supply, and even more so the Lingo, the pitch stability is much better on the Linn, a piano for example, simply sounds like it has been better tuned. This is really not knocking the Rega as most turntables are much worse in these aspects, but no amp and speakers can close the difference.

The musical improvements that the LP12 give over the Rega, are easily heard through a good £150 amp and good £100 speaker, and given a £3000 budget, for the best sound for your money, I would personally spend at least 2/3 on the source. More to the point, this is easily demonstrated, and the type of dem that was often carried out. I can't recall anybody preferring the Rega played through a £1500 amp and £1500 speakers.

Having been initially extremely cynical towards the importance of the source, I only believed in the value of it after listening for myself. I highly recommend that nobody takes my word, but also do not dismiss it without listening for yourself.

I'm sorry, but I'm no familiar with the Clearaudio Concept, but suggest you would need to look further up the range.

When I said "giving of its best", I meant that the turntable (or CD player), was correctly set up and leveled on a suitable surface - either wall or floor shelf. It makes no sense to position speakers down to single centimetres, without the best possible signal.

Due to all the equipment being sold by demonstration and not recommendation, either a very good CD player or a top end turntable would always be used with an active system. I don't know any dealer that would recommend a highly revealing and dynamic active system, without a good front end. The only Rega I can recall in an active system I sold and installed, was one already owned, the purchaser having gone for the best CD player. Later on he upgraded the turntable, and started listening predominantly to vinyl!

Active versus passive? If you believe that upgrading the turntable turns singers into better singers, musicians into better musicians, with better pitch and timing, then a more revealing system will only highlight this differences more - you are opening the window wider. If you open the window really wide, you have to make sure you like what comes in.

When people see a live band / orchestra, they comment on the musicianship, the timing, the feel. Comments like the instruments were out of tune, they were sloppy or wow they were amazing, they moved me - the piano player was superb!

I and many others judge Hi-fi on musical terms. I know what a tuned piano sounds like, I know what makes a good rhythm section sounds like. Even though I have heard and played a number of instruments, I couldn't tell you if tonally a Hi-fi is accurate, every musician will get a slightly different tone in the same environment, yet alone in a different accoustic.

So as a very simple test, take a very simple piece of music such as a Chopin Etude. Play it on a very good turntable like a Rega. Listen to about a dozen notes and hum to yourself what you actually hear, not what you think you should hear. Play the same piece on a supposed better turntable and repeat the hum test. Was it easier or harder to "sing along"? If you find that one turntable makes it easier and more predictable to do this, then it is musically better.

If you hear big improvements (not, differences) here on a few notes of a single instruments, and many do, no amount of amplification, cables and speakers will have anywhere near the same affect as the source on this musical difference. If you haven't already tried it, give the sing along (yes, the Linn tune dem) a go - it really can be an eye and ear opener.

Hope this clarifies things for you. Happy listening!

 

Great, thank you chervokas and Randoms. Definitely adds clarity to the discussion by looking at specific examples.

So, Rega's have definite compromises and yet they enjoy a very good reputation amongst the audiophile community. Despite the compromises, I'd say they produce great sounding turntables that shouldn't be described as "garbage in". Maybe not all see it that way. I can only agree with the following then:

It comes down to what level of compromise is one willing to accept. One car lover may enjoy his BMW, while another scoffs at that and instead demands no less than a Bentley. And perhaps the P3 is more like a Honda Accord. These are all quality automobiles to me, but they clearly have differing levels of performance and refinement.

I remember you bringing up the Rega ringing in another thread, chervokas. And you speculated it may actually be why some like the Rega sound...it adds a feeling of quickness and liveliness. If someone likes this kind of sound then clearly high fidelity is not the primary goal of an audio system. The goal may instead be a system that is engaging to that person, whatever colorations that implies.

 

@Dream On The Regas are excellent turntables, and on a suitable surface offer excellent sound. I have lived very happily with my original Planar 3 with the old R200, S shaped arm and later on when circumstances meant I sold my Sondek, I chose a Rega Planar 2, with the RB250 arm to listen to music. Again I had many hours of musical enjoyment playing my records on it. Later on, following my own advice, I upgraded the turntable.

Garbage in, garbage out, or GIGO, was used in the 70s and 80s particularly, as an easy explanation of the benefits of improving the source. In no way do I believe that the Rega is garbage, and I'm sorry if you took it like that. As I said, I've owned two myself, and recommended and sold dozens, I really like it! Compared to more expensive turntables it more than holds its own and outperforms some.

However, you can get a better turntable, which unfortunately cost more, sometimes many times more. I just honestly feel (and can easily demonstrate), that a better turntable gives musical improvements that amps and speakers cannot.

I'm out of touch with more recent turntables on the market, but the same philosophy applies, namely any information lost at the beginning, cannot be recovered later on - hence GIGO. I certainly didn't use the term to belittle a very good product.

My honest advice, is always to try and find a good dealer, listen for yourself and trust your own ears. I do appreciate that it isn't always possible to do this, but all I really hope is that people get the best sound for their money, and a system that is good enough to allow them to play any music that they choose to listen.

Hence -

Turntable
Turntable power supply
Arm
Cartridge
Preamp
Poweramp
Speakers

A digital source replaces, or is used along side the first four.

 

No worries, Randoms. I didn't take anything anyone said in this thread to mean they think Rega's tables are garbage.

I guess we all need to decide at what point are things good enough. There is always better out there. If one really needs to eek out every bit of improvement to turntable performance that is possible, they can spend $150K on a TOTL table and I'm sure it would sound incredible in the right system. Most of us don't have anywhere close to that much to spend though, so we seek to hit a certain level of quality that we can be happy with. And for me, vinyl is a secondary source behind CD...another factor to take into account.

But I probably didn't give the differences in table design enough credit. I can see how this has a large impact - I understood this but think my words may have unintentionally minimized that. Still not sure that I'd rank anything ahead of speakers though. There are as many different approaches to speaker design as there are to table design and the difference in sound between these is just as pronounced. I feel they are closer to being equal than not. There is one thing you said specifically that illustrates this...open up the window (i.e. better speakers) and you need to make sure you like what you are seeing (i.e. better source). It suggests that the two go hand-in-hand. It would seem counter-intuitive to put so much weight on the source and then pair it with speakers that are not very revealing (and also vice-versa). I tend to think of these then as #1 and #2, with amplification coming in at #3 (or #3 and #4 if running separates). Although the amplification obviously also contributes to what the speakers are fed. So really then, is it not the quality of the speakers, how revealing they are, that dictates the level of gear you need to place before them? Sure, if one buys $200 speakers and puts a $4,000 table in front of them the speakers will sound as good as they possibly can, but frankly it's wasted money because at some point (likely way before $4,000) those speakers are going to reach the limits of what they can convey.

 

GIGO might be logical, then again it might not. Using a reasonably OK front end; top amps and really good speakers will of course improve the sound, compared with ordinary ones. The amps and speakers don´t care what they are fed, if they are better, any signal will be better handled. The best scenario is of course if the amps and speakers are fed from a totally perfect front end, but that is never the case.

 

There aren't many that I can think of offhand that combine active speakers and a DAC. Audioengine do, but they're not true actives. Actually, they're not actives at all but that's a side issue.

I think it goes towards the source first view in as much as you don't need to worry about your amp and speaker pairing.

As to the view that source first is the most important in contemporary audio, I'd suggest otherwise and somebody would need to screw up REALLY badly on that front. The quality is that good these days.

As to GIGO, best left in the computing industry as it doesn't stack up even with very low budget audio gear today. Hasn't done for years in fact, IMO, except in the minds of a thankfully reducing group of audiophiles.

 

Speakers
Powercords
Amp
Source
Room

 

No, no, no. I never said any such thing. I must not be expressing myself clearly, I am talking about allocation of funds. I think it is a serious misallocation of funds to focus too much on the source, because that is NOT where money buys the most quality.

Or to put it another way, WHAT "substandard feed"? Again presuming we are not talking about a $5 ceramic cartridge turntable, or 128k MP3, sources these days are good. Do they all sound the same? Nah. But the differences are not tremendously huge, even if easily audible to some. I'd say even cheap sources should rate a "B+" really. Whereas speakers, well, there are a lot of cruddy ones out there, limiting the total sound to a far vaster extent than a decent source EVER will. Speakers are simply so inaccurate, their effect on the overall sound is orders of magnitude more than source components. Plus, speakers inaccuracies as far as dispersion interact with the ROOM, which source components do not. And as I said before, sources inevitably get upgraded and speakers more rarely, a more practical reason I recommend getting the best possible speakers first.

OR, to turn your quote on its head, "What magic do these [expensive source components] have that can turn a [crappy speaker] into [something lovely sounding]? Not possible.

 

Explain more? I'm curious.

 

For me it would be the speakers, their placement in the room and the room itself. Then I'd say the source, preamp/processor and amps. I agree with many when they mention the quality of the recording which is extremely important. Garbage in garbage out .

 

SPEAKERS!!!!

 

Final answer ?

D.D.

 

No. How about SPEAKERS??????

 

Active speakers vs Powered Speakers; is there a difference?

Have a look at this thread and see Chooke's post at the end.

 

So Chooke is saying it's not speakers, but, active crossover, power amp and then speakers in that order? GIGO? What kind of outmoded Audiophile would believe you can better sound with cheaper speakers, driven actively?

How could it be possible for a bandwidth limited amplifier, directly driving a single drive unit, to give a more "accurate", more dynamic, controlled sound, than an amplifier driving 2, 3, 4, 5 drive units, having first to heat up coils and the problems of a L/C circuit? Is an 4, 6, 8 ohmn load easier for an amplifier than one dipping to under 2 ohm with a reactive load? This is first year electronics.

I apologise for the sarcasm, but if it wasn't down to cost and maybe size, I don't believe anyone would choose passive speakers over well designed active ones.

A well designed and set up active speaker, a!so tends to have less problems with problem rooms.

 

He's quoted another poster and highlighted an inaccuracy in their statement that the AEs are active. Which they're not.

Anything else is your conjecture.

 

You are right, I missed that he was quoting and correcting another user. Apart from the error which he pointed out, he also said "all good", so not really conjecture.

Anyway, I'm not here to nitpick, you more than most, are fully aware of the benefits of an active set up.

 

"Time to Play"

 

SPEAKERS (of course )
Listening position in the room
Room
Pre-amplifier
DAC
Amplifier
Hi-End S/PDIF Output Interface
Cables
Optimized PC (only music dedicated)
Player

P.S. No vinyl in my system, as you can see

 

I'm a headphone listener. The room doesn't factor into the equation.

My take on the source first vs. transducer first is that it depends on the style of sound your after and the style of system that you have. With some headphone systems the headphones are going to be the most important part in tuning the sound to how you like it, while in other system the amp and source are going to be the most important part. If you're after a dimensional and holographic and laid-back and musical style of sound with headphones then you're going to be source first and preferring tubes. If you're after a more dynamic and forward presentation and what some would consider accurate then you're likely going to be transducer first and preferring solid state amps.

For headphone listening I'm in the tube style sound camp and laid-back and musical style of sound camp. With the headphone transducer being right next to your ear you need the source and amp to be mellowing things otherwise the treble and hyped dynamics is just too much. I also need the source and amp to help create a sense of depth and space in the sound because headphones aren't going to create that sense of depth and space on their own. With the right source and amp I am able to get headphones to give me that sense of depth and space and music that I'm after. That style of sound that I'm after requires that I pay attention to source first. With the right source and amp I'm able to get the style of headphone sound I'm after. I just need to pick a headphone that synergizes and presents the sound I'm after. To me the most important part of that system mix is the amp and source. You can give me a headphone I don't consider my favorite along with an amp and source that I really like and I'll be happy. Give my a headphone that I really like with an amp and source that I don't really like and I'll not be happy.

For the style of headphone sound I'm after I would not consider it out of whack to have a $2K or $3K or $5K amp along with a $1K or $2K or $3K DAC to use with a $300 to $400 headphone (Sennheiser HD600 or HD650) or $1000 Audeze headphone. I'd rather have that system than a $4K Focal Utopia or $3K Audeze or $3K HiFiman HE1000 and compromise on the amp and source.

 

1. Mind
2. Ears
3. Everything else

 

Total accurate information retrieval
Is where you have to START.

Source.