White vinegar x IPA

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Quaglio, Feb 27, 2021.

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  1. Quaglio

    Quaglio Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, USA
    Hey guys! I’m new to the forum and I’m trying to make the perfect record cleaning fluid for my VPI machine.
    I’ve used the MoFi super record wash and to me it worked great. But I ran out of it and don’t really want to pay over $50 for shipping it to me.
    So I’ve been reading and researching a lot about cleaning fluids and I’m willing to try the combination of Triton X-100 + distilled water.
    But I’ve seen a lot of people using IPA as a third ingredient to increase the effectiveness of the fluid. Anyway, I’m very reluctant when it comes to alcohol. To me it makes records sound a little harsh and sometimes it even impacts on the brightness of the vinyl.

    After a lot of reading, I came across people using white vinegar instead of IPA and I’m wondering if it will be effective with the other ingredients I’ve chosen. Has anybody ever tried this combination?

    Another option I’m considering is using enzymatic detergent, but I also don’t know its effects either.

    Oh, and one more thing: is propylene glycol also safe? If yes, in what quantity?

    Thanks in advance!
    Diego.
     
  2. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    IPA to me is India Pale Ale. So I have no idea what is being asked here.
     
  3. Curiosity

    Curiosity Just A Boy

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Isopropyl Alcohol, bud.:thumbsup:
     
  4. ArneW

    ArneW Senior Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Vinegar is acid. I’d rather not have something like this in my cleaning fluid.
     
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  5. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    I would not have vinegar anywhere outside a salad. I suggest don't experiment with your records, leave that to companies with experience in the matter. Saving a few dollar there can turn out to be a false economy.
    I would also avoid new products unless they come from a well established company with a long experience in the vinyl industry. If I were you, I'll stick to your MOFI cleaner regardless of the price.
     
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  6. Hagstrom

    Hagstrom Please stop calling them vinyls.

    I thought this was about beer!!!
     
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  7. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member


    Get some 99% pure isopropyl alcohol, mix it in a circa 15% solution with distilled water and put a sufficient amount of some kind of surfactant in there. In the old days the home brew recipe folks used used Kodak Photo Flow because it was fairly easy to get then, place has photo stores where you could by the stuff. But it was imperfect in that Photo Flow wasn't just a non-ionic surfactant (Triton X-100 aka Octylphenoxypolyethoxyethanol), but also propylene glycol. I'm sure you'll find someone to tell you propylene glycol isn't safe, but in fact it's used as a food additive, its the carrier agent in vaping liquids, its used in theatrical fog machines. There's no safety hazard from in this circumstance.

    I know some people avoid alcohol in record cleaning solutions like the plague. Frankly, I've never had success with any record cleaning solution that did NOT have alcohol in it. And using these surfactants like Triton X-100 in quantities so that they're a detergent and not just a surfactant to me produced results that required lots of rinsing to clean off audible muck left behind on the surfaces. Alcohol, water and a surfactant cleans the records and dries and evaporates quickly and thoroughly leaving behind little trace. Sure, you can rinse if you want to, but you don't need to and you certainly don't need lots of rinsing.

    In decades of using solutions like this I've experience zero evidence of any impact on the high frequency sound of the vinyl or any element of the vinyl other than those things that come from a cleaner surface.
     
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  8. Quaglio

    Quaglio Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, USA
    I’m aware of that. But its acidity gets less harmful diluted in distilled water. Vinegar is just as effective as enzymes to kill mold and grease. Also very used on vinyl floors, leather and even clothes for cleaning purposes. Plus the vacuum will prevent it sticking to the vinyl.
     
    Saint Johnny likes this.
  9. Quaglio

    Quaglio Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, USA
    I understand your point of view. I would actually not consider experimenting if getting manufactured fluids was the easiest option.
    Plus, I’m sure after researching that these fluids are freakingly overpriced and use basically the same combination of ingredients I’ve mentioned above... And who knows what else. Sometimes it’s hard to tell if any of these special products will harm your records through time. So I’m willing to take that risk.
     
  10. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    No can do IPA. Will take a lager or Pilsner instead.
     
  11. Quaglio

    Quaglio Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, USA
    Thank you for your reply! I’m going to try your recipe. Just one question though: what quantity of glycol do you recommend?
     
  12. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I use a roughly 50-50 solution of distilled water and 50% alcohol (so the total alcohol content of your mix is about 25%), to which I add maybe a couple tablespoons of white vinegar and a few drops of dish soap. Works well for me. Rinse with distilled water. Vacuum RCM to dry.
     
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  13. Quaglio

    Quaglio Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, USA
    Thank you! Have you experienced any damage through time with your solution?
     
  14. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    I haven't used propylene glycol per se other than having used Photo Flow back in the day which is 25-30% propylene glycol, but in the recipe I'm using a tiny amount of Photo Flow, just enough to get the solution to spread, not enough to get the solution to foam, so it's a small but uncontrolled amount in the homebrew solutions I've used.
     
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  15. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    No damage.
     
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  16. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    That is exactly the reason I made a point on insisting you only buy products from companies with a long and proven trajectory in the vinyl industry instead of newcomers. I would say these companies are much more likely to have the relevant experience and have invested a lot of money testing and researching their products thoroughly.
     
  17. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    Is this is a common abbreviation in the UK? The English did invent India Pale Ale, so I'm not thinking it is. In the USA Isopropyl Alcohol is just shortened to Isopropyl.
     
    johnny q likes this.
  18. kamchatka

    kamchatka Forum Resident

    Location:
    north america
    What are your thoughts on using free & clear dish soap as a surfactant, compared to photo flow? I've been using basically the same formula (99% isopropyl+distilled water+surfactant), but with a few drops of dish soap as the surfactant. I'm happy with the results, but I've always been curious to try Ilfosol (the Ilford equivalent to Kodak's photo flow).
     
  19. Quaglio

    Quaglio Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, USA
    Well, dish soap works alright when you clean records in the sink. But it’s not as effective as a surfactant. It has other chemicals (like coloring, scents, preservatives etc) and the amount of surfactant is not enough as the concentrated form (like triton x100, tergitol or ilfotol). It also can create some foam on the surface, which might leave stains if you don’t rinse.
     
  20. Curiosity

    Curiosity Just A Boy

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Certainly is in the hobbyist and technological fields although whither we need it is another question.
     
  21. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Never tried it.
     
  22. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    You can review what is in many of these household products here - CPID (whatsinproducts.com); pretty much the kitchen sink; its many ingredients of which maybe 20-25% are associated with cleaning.

    FWIW - here is Kodak PhotoFlo and ILFORD ILFOTOL:

    KODAK™ PHOTO-FLO 200: This is a wetting agent that is water mixed with a combination of 25-30% propylene glycol (i.e., anti-freeze) that acts as a solvent and as an antibacterial and antifungal agent and 5-10% nonionic surfactant. Once its diluted, the propylene glycol is no longer a biocide and at 1% it promotes bacteria growth and if agitated should foam.

    ILFORD-ILFOTOL™: This is a wetting agent that is water mixed with a combination of 1-5% nonionic surfactant and <1% of an antibacterial inhibitor that can extend shelf-life. This wetting agent/cleaner will foam if agitated/shaken aggressively. The biocide inhibitor used in ILFOTOL is very effective down to as low as 6-10 ppm and is known at CMIT/MIT.

    If you are DIYing it, just add some Triton X100 equal to about 0.1 to 0.2% or Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.05 to 0.1% (Tergitol 15-S-3 and 15-S-9 Surfactant | TALAS (talasonline.com). Note the Tergitol 15-S-9 is essentially 4X more efficient than Triton X100 so you use less which makes prep and rinsing easier. 15-S-9 is the replacement for Triton X100 which is a very old surfactant and is now banned in some countries because of environmental issues.

    If you are cleaning some really grungy records - first pre-clean with 1% (10 mL/L) Alconox Liquiox Amazon.com: Alconox - 1232-1 1232 Liquinox Anionic Critical Cleaning Liquid Detergent, 1 quart Bottle: Industrial & Scientific rinse and then final clean with just the non-ionic surfactant solution. You can add some IPA but keep in mind that when the concentration hits 10% its officially classified as 'flammable" with flashpoint of 100F; so be careful depending on how you are using.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  23. Nephrodoc

    Nephrodoc Forum Resident

    Skip the alcohol, Mofi super wash is more of a rinse, not that good a cleaner, I never liked it.

    Good cleaning fluids that have worked really good for me:
    Liquinox is a great precleaner, cheap and very effective.
    Tergikleen or tergitols work really good, not that expensive and will last a long time.
    Vinylzyme gold in concentrate is excellent, mix up as you need it.
    Most important is to rinse with distiller water as your final step.
     
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