Who is the most overrated figure in Jazz?

My music collection reads like a who's who of no-name musicians and performers and I am, most certainly, NOT into what the mass concensus thinks. Everyone in my family is a musician, I do "get" what Coltrane is doing and I do not think he is worthy of the praise that is given to him as one of the top jazz performers.

Thelonious Monk, on the other hand, is deserving of much more credit than he ever received. So is Ben Webster. When I go into a CD shop, however, I usually see 10 times more Coltrane selections. He is much more the "mass consensus" than most jazz artists.

Besides, where in my original post did I put him down?

 

Kenny G. Is NOT jazz! I'm sick of people calling what he does jazz. It's lite pop, easy listening, adult contemporary, quiet storm, new age, even, but NOT JAZZ!

 

Have you ever noticed that when your nose is not well blown you hear all kinds of whistling and noice when breathing. When this happens you hearing will not neutrally hear any music also if you playing it yourself. That's why you SHOULD pick your nose.

Now whiping it on your shirt... uh...that's dirty!

 

I couldn't agree more. I guess I just assumed we were going to discuss pre-1960s jazz; the only real jazz there is!

I also agree with your Miles assessment if we're talking post-1959.

 

We've always laughed are asses off when hearing that story. I like the guy even more because of that story!

 

jligon,

Perhaps I need to clarify a few things:

I was not singling you out as putting Coltrane or anyone down. I respect the fact that you feel Coltrane doesn't deserve the praise he gets. I completely disagree with you, but I wouldn't say you are wrong as that is how you honestly feel.

As you clearly state you are not into what the mass consensus thinks, then much like myself you believe that all that really matters is what your ears are telling you and that the praise you say he receives as one of the top jazz performers shouldn't even really matter as that praise originates with the mass consensus.

Artists only become overrated when the "mass consensus" make them that way. Thankfully the mass consensus has no control over our ears, where the music we love ends up.

Thank you for your comments.

Best - ED

 

To be honest, I don't know. I've heard a bunch of different tapes my friend played for me and lent to me, but I don't remember any titles. I'll check those out, though.

 

Amen!

 

I would personally bump that up to anything before 1967.

 

Okay, I'll bite. I actually produce jazz records. I once asked Jerome Cooper what he thought of Ed Shaughnessy, who was on the cover of a Modern Drummer magazine that profiled Cooper in the same issue. He said 'Do you mean as a drummer?...Alan, I don't think of him as a drummer'. That sums of my reaction to the music of Kenny G., Spyrogyra and their ilk. I would vote with everyone who went with Wynton Marsalis, a terrific musician doing at this point little innovating in the music and getting far too much publicity for it. As for anyone who voted for (or is it against?) Trane, Miles, Herbie, Weather Report...as the Dude said 'Hey man, that's your opinion'.

 

Hiya Jeff,

Good luck with that, really. I've found this to be the single most rewarding title in my collection, of all genres. Obviously, listening from start to finish is the best way to go, but track 3 (the first part) kills me. McCoy Tyner smokes. You can even forget Coltrane if you want, just focus on Tyner's solo. Unbelievable. I could listen 100 times in a row and not tire of this track.

Oh well, beating this to death again . But we're all passionate here about our own things, so be it!

Mike

 

I'm going to enthusiastically second this post, Scott!

 

I have to strongly disagree with this comment.

Check out some of Sonny Stitt's albums from the 70's. Some of those smoke like no other. That is, assuming you like Sonny, which I do.

Not to mention Newport '72 Jazz festival on Cobblestone. There's a track on one of the lp's (it's a 6 LP set) where Roland Kirk blows like I never heard him before. Man, a lot of great jazz went unnoticed all through the 70's. Too bad!

 

You obviously haven't picked up the recent Village Vanguard 6 disc set. And I felt exactly as you did.

This is what happened. I'm in my favorite local jazz shop, and they're playing this killer album. I ask what it is. He tells me it's Wynton Marsalis, early 90's, from tapes originally recorded by NPR for broadcast. Now Sony/Legacy releases these tapes as a cheap 6 disc set. Setting aside my prejudice against Marsalis, I spring for the set (not a big bill, trust me). And I have been super pleased ever since!

 

I won't push it higher... just a one time thing.

Honest.

Really.

You can trust me.

 

Is Kenny G a Jazz musician? If so, even though I don't think he'd be rated highly, I'd say he's still overrated. I think he recorded the same song about 300 times!

 

Its like I mentioned earlier, I mention Jazz to some people and they say "Oh I like Jazz, My fav is KENNY G." You would not believe how much of that mentality is out there, They have no conceptio of what JAZZ IS! Its just a big, big shame!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I think a lot of that has to do with not having a Jazz radio station available. In New York we've got lite this and mellow that . There is no Rock Station per se and no Jazz station per se. When someone wants those types of music they must turn to what's available (not much). If I was not exposed to DCC, and able to get certain Jazz titles at a great reduction in cost, I too would not be exposed to this great music. Anyone want to start a radio station?

 

Unfortunately, most of the NPR jazz station are getting "watered down" by money concerns and have had to split up their air time between other fomats to survive and only play jazz a few hours of their broadcast day

 

Overrated?

All,

It seems to me that it is very hard, intellectually, to say that any one "figure" is overrated in Jazz. Contributions to Jazz vary greatly from contributor to contributor, recorded work to recorded work, style to style. One listener's overrated contributor is another listener's genius, as it should be. The same question can be asked for other forms and styles of music. Is Phil Spector overrated? Is Zubin Mehta overrated? Are Lennon and McCartney overrated, Is Buddy Holly overrated? Is Sir Georg Solti overrated?

The real truth is that every artist, musician, songwriter, conductor, producer and engineer has contributed to the all recorded works that we listen to. The level of genius that we perceive is a matter of perception, taste, knowledge and understanding. As human beings, these subjective assessments, that we all make, change as we age, grow, and develop. Our perceptions even change based on our distinctive personal life experiences!

Bob

 

Hi,

This thread has some interesting responses. I have a question for all the posters who consider John Coltrane and Miles Davis overrated. Who do ya consider underrated?

Just Askin',
Jeffrey

 

You have my vote. Where do I send my campaign contribution. Your running on the "Gold Ticket"?

 

Re: Overrated?

When I started this thread I did not anticipate an argument on what the terms "overrated" or "jazz" meant.

For some reason, the majority of those posting have decided to comment on these topics rather than offer information relevant to the original intent of my post.

Subsequently, I have concluded that I did not word the topic correctly. It's my fault. I did not want this to turn this into a series of arguments and also did not anticipate having to defend my comments concerning John Coltrane. I wanted to know what you guys thought. I didn't try to force my opinion down anyone's throat.

I wanted to know which jazz artists have been over-hyped, in your opinion, through jazz reviews, jazz publications, jazz specials on PBS, from friends, on Internet bulletin boards, from anywhere...and you just don't quite understand all of the hype.

In this day and age of sitting at your computer and insulting people you have never met, a number of you must have read my original post and deduced either; I think John Coltrane sucks, I'm looking to stir something up with the Coltrane lovers, I don't know anything about, or don't "get" John Coltrane so I am angry with those that do, or any number of other simple-minded alterior motives.

My motivation comes from; Numerous, numerous, numerous individuals that I have met that think that jazz begins and ends with JC. I also know a number of individuals that, I'm positive, think that they look more cultured if they can comment on jazz music and they always seem to adopt JC as their man. Apparently, they must think it's cool to like the Trane. Additionaly, as I mentioned earlier, every CD shop I go in seems to carry WAY more Coltrane discs than any other jazz figure and I can't figure this out (unless it's to appease my pretentious friends).

Finally, and most importantly (to me) I don't see what JC can do that so many other great tenor sax players cannot. Personally, I much prefer the sounds of Ben Webster, Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins to the Trane. But that's just my opinion. Now please don't make me explain it any more.

 

Jeff,

Good to hear from you! I actually heard this line once before. Hmmm. I think it might have been from that clinician in grade school who told me the MMR shot wouldn't hurt a bit!

 

I've always wanted to own a station! Now, all I need is some cash. Hmm, must have some lying around here somewhere....

Or maybe pirate radio makes more sense! Record a ton of stuff on a 10" open reel at super low speed for maximum unmanned airtime (not to mention low fidelity). Then, as the great Ron Popeil says himself, "SET IT AND FORGET IT!".