Who was a bigger influence on the burgeoning punk scene, NY Dolls or The Stooges? Why?

Rock college thesis time. Who influenced punk more, The Stooges or The New York Dolls? Why? Don't forget to show your work.

 

We could obviously argue the timeline-Stooges’ first album in 1969, Fun House in 1970, and Raw Power and the Dolls’ first record both in 1973.

Musically, the Stooges’ first album had that primal and hard edged sound, although traces of psychedelia remain in the record. Fun House does Away with the psychedelia, having a much more dingy and nihilistic presentation, although the album has occasional artistic bents such as the avant jazz freak Out that closes the record. Meanwhile, both Raw Power and the first Dolls Record are more straightforward by comparison. But whereas the Dolls were more cheeky and shambolic, Raw Power is more punishing in its presentation, and having a more caustic and confrontational presence both on record and live, which would come to define what most would see as “punk”.

Which is not to discredit the Dolls. Unlike the Stooges, who were deliberately sloppy and actually rather competent as shown by the Fun House rehearsal tapes, the Dolls were these misfits who decided “we can’t really play our instruments, but duck it, let’s go up there anyway.” In addition, Johnny Thunders’ guitar work certainly was prototype punk guitar, being very biting and venomous, rawer than even Ron Asheton ever was.

 

The Velvet Underground.

 

I'd say the Dolls just due to propinquity.

 

I would have to say Stooges. NY Dolls had the attitude but seemed more inextricably derived from glam rock to me. Iggy and his gang started out in '67 and by 1972 they were the literal spitting image of punk to come. Just listen to Metallic KO.

 

Let's begin with the thesis that the modern punk era (as opposed to proto-punk or garage rock) begins with the Ramones.

On one hand, Johnny Ramone is clearly and profoundly influenced by Ron Asheton. And JR is the template for punk guitar.

On the other hand, the Ramones arrive at CBGB under the giant shadow of the New York Dolls, and it shows in their song choices. The heavy influence of 60s groups like the Shangri-Las and The Ronettes is a direct hand-me-down from the Dolls. And, for goodness sakes, look at the Ramones when they first show up -- Joey is all but imitating (very poorly) David Jo:



Moving forward, a similar aesthetic plays out -- punk's guitar buzz is profoundly impacted by the Stooges (Dead Boys, Damned and Buzzcocks to name three clear examples), while the visuals (check out Steve Jones' Johnny Thunders impersonation) and the connection to early 60's song structure come from the Dolls.

Ultimately, you can't separate the two. Both were massively important in the development of punk (and metal and, in the Doll's case, 80's metal).

It's a draw.

 

I guess the Dolls only because of timing and location. But as @Musicman1998 already mentioned, probably The Stooges sound, song structure, arrangements, etc. more than the Dolls.
The Dolls were a little more R and B and Stonesy in most of their songs than The Stooges.

 

I've seen both NYD and Stooges in concert and the dolls were brilliant entertainment.
I've not heard of Why so can't comment.

 

The Stooges were certainly better, but thinking back to 1976 when I first was hearing about punk (I was 18) I heard the New York Dolls name thrown around quite a bit and I never heard anyone talking about the Stooges.

 

I do wonder if the NY Dolls had more impact on the US punk scene, and the Stooges and Iggy on the UK punk scene, due to Iggy's ties to Bowie.

 

And Johnny appears to be channeling James Williamson as far as his look goes. Ramones did dress a bit glam-esque in the early days.
But I think you nailed it with the same influences flowing between the Doll and Ramones. The girl group and AM radio pop influence is undeniable in both, and the members of both bands were certainly old enough to have experienced that sound as it was happening. The difference between the two is the Dolls love of r&b and blues.
While the first Stooges album certainly had an effect on the punk bands as far as short, deliberately confrontational songs go, and Fun House is kind of an outlier, the influence of Raw Power cannot be understated. I lost track of how many cover versions of "Search and Destroy" I heard back then. Even Rocket from the Tombs covered "Raw Power", and a lot of the members of soon to be punk bands in England were at the Stooges shows at the time. Dead Boys were so obviously channeling the Stooges (especially Bators) that it was a bit of a joke to a lot of people. Not me though, I saw them a lot and always enjoyed them.
It's a definite draw.

 

The Stooges if for no other reason that their 1st lp songs were easier to cover.

 

It may be equal

The Dolls connection through mclaren had a huge impact on framing something for mclaren to take back to the UK. NY Dolls may have been a tad more listener friendly than the Stooges and probably had more traction in the UK. Thunders kinda continued the danger myth as the others sought more accessibility.

I think the Stooges were a bit more of a wild animal and were so far underground in their heyday they were obscured by the hostility directed towards them. Plus it was not as clear when the Stooges were over, as it was with the Dolls, so releases like Kill City, Metallic KO, and Iggy’s solo debut were greeted with the same hostility and indifference as the though the Stooges were a still a threat like when their debut came out. Suicide would probably be the NY equivalent of the lightning rod that the Stooges were.

At the time of punk Iggy was potentially dangerous the Dolls were not.
I remember the Dolls being spoken about more in interviews in connection with punk. I think in retrospect the Stooges are being considered much more massively than they were at the time, because they were so much more uncompromising and that took time to digest.

 

That's a good point.
The first time I heard a Stooges song (Search And Destroy-maybe 15 years ago) my initial thought was, "this sounds like the Sex Pistols".

 

But then look at Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers. Much, much bigger in the UK than they ever were stateside. Lots of British players (Johnny Marr is a big example) worshiped Thunders.

 

Since so much of US punk started with the Ramones, the biggest influence would have to be....the DICTATORS! On the Clash too, since they used the same producers.

 

Those are excellent points.

 

The Stooges - Radio Birdman, Did The Stooges and MC5 infuence Johnny Thunders?

 

From what I've read (and I've read a lot about the guy), not really. Thunders was mostly into old 50s and 60s stuff. His style mostly came from the fact that didn't really know much about playing guitar and just screwed around until he found something that worked. You could maybe make some arguments about Jerry Nolan being influenced a little by Scott Asheton.

But, then again, most people don't realize how largely unknown the Stooges were in 1071 in America. They weren't on the radio and it's possible the Dolls never even knew who they were when they started. the Stooges and the MC5 (and the Dolls for that matter) are way bigger now then they were in their lifetimes.

 

The Stooges because of Raw Power. And they made much better records.

 

My avatar should tell you how I feel about the Stooges, but the first NY Dolls record is stone cold brilliant. Stone cold.

 

Glad you like it. I didn't care much for it when it came out. I'll have to listen again.

 

Stooges. They came first, and made Raw Power and Fun House, like others have noted. Both are great records. They were one of the first to capture the energy that would later become widespread in punk.

 

Stooges 1969...I was floored when I first heard it back in 1969...it's 1969 OK, all cross the USA! LOL.