Who's running flagship AVRs? Do tell why.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ronm, Feb 25, 2017.

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  1. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    For the most part, the build priority on the AVR's is not the amplification. The best thing you can do for yourself is to get one with pre outs and run a separate power amplifier.
     
  2. gd0

    gd0 Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies

    Location:
    Golden Gate
    THIS was the Pioneer to get in 08 (09?) – SX-09TX.

    Nicknamed Susano – the Shinto god of the sea and storms. :)

    Overbuilt, powerful, gorgeous (Urishi gloss finish)... and probably obsolete, processor-wise.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  3. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Not true, for many of the "flagship" AVR models. Hence the point of this thread :)
     
  4. ronm

    ronm audiofreak Thread Starter

    Location:
    southern colo.
    I've read that it is a very nice unit.Top drawer stuff but at the same time very complicated.
     
  5. ronm

    ronm audiofreak Thread Starter

    Location:
    southern colo.
    This is new to me.Never new Sherwood was still in the game at this level.Newcastle R965.Wanted to post a pic but don't know how.Don't even see the option.
     
  6. ronm

    ronm audiofreak Thread Starter

    Location:
    southern colo.
    That Pioneer is NICE! Wasn't aware of that either.
     
  7. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I don't know about all of them certainly but I've had a Denon and Marantz and it just isn't there even in their top models. Delivering proper amplification with the optimal power supplies for 5 to 7 channels with 200wpc isn't what is happening with AVR's that I've seen or heard. A 5 channel AVR generally weighs about 30 to 40 lbs, a 5 channel separate amp is going to be close to 100lb's. Admittedly, I've been out of the AVR game for a few years but what they claim for power is shady.
     
  8. LarryP

    LarryP Soul Singing

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    I had initially heard that as well. I made sure my AVR had pre-outs. Turns out....they're not needed as the sound is second to none to me.

    Also, not really the question the OP was asking.....
     
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  9. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Have you tried it? Everything sounds great until you hear something better.
     
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  10. mdm08033

    mdm08033 Senior Member

    Whoa.
     
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  11. LarryP

    LarryP Soul Singing

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    No, I have not tried it so fair enough! I did specifically buy a "flagship" AVR for purposes of avoiding separates....which IMHO are not necessary when one spends a bit more on an AVR (again IMO). Your claim on shady power definitely rings true with me also but with my AVR there were/are a plethora of independent measurements out there that in fact were quite good (with equally good SNR, THD, etc etc). All that was good enough for me but indeed made sure pre-outs available. Not needed for me in my system as my power is solid and clear/clean.
     
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  12. mdm08033

    mdm08033 Senior Member

    Pre-separation, I had a Pioneer Elite SC-25 connected to a fuax THX styled Paradigm Atom based speaker array . It sounds great and offers easy switching between multiple HDMI, component video and high resolution audio sources. I got lucky and bought mine from the really stretched and dented shelf at Best Buy for about 1/3 of the original $1,500 msrp. My soon to be ex and children still use it every day to watch over the air TV, stream from a Roku or TiVo and play Wii U games.

    I enjoyed the sound quality, ease of operation and depreciation so much that I suggested one to a friend for his similar system. He bought the Pioneer Elite SC-35 for $380.

    My favorite thing about flagship receivers, other that sound quality, is how cheap they are on the secondary market.
     
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  13. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I bought a Denon AVR with pre outs and a separate power amp at the same time in about 2007. It wasn't the top model but it was about $1,500 as I recall and in comparison to the top model, I don't think power was the improvement. I never used the internal power until I had an issue with my amp and took it in for service. For a few days I reverted to using the internal power and I kid you not, I felt a wave of depression overcome me. It was just awful. After the amp returned to service, all was right with the world.

    Again, I'm not saying "Flagship" in my case nor have I heard every AVR. What I do know is that a good power amp is heavy, most of that weight comes from the power supply that takes up some space and puts out a bunch of heat. Accommodating that inside the chassis of any AVR is not practical or cost effective.
     
  14. ronm

    ronm audiofreak Thread Starter

    Location:
    southern colo.
    Its not a question of which is better.I think we all know when push comes to shove the separates are the top dog.Its about how good the amplifiers are in a package deal that a flagship offers.Also the flexibility these units offer is phenomenal.
     
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  15. LarryP

    LarryP Soul Singing

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    I definitely don't doubt your experience but will respectfully disagree with you on AVR quality of manufacturing, weight of amps, cost effectiveness, etc.

    The OP asked if we had such an AVR and why. I thought I answered and gave my "why"....thanks.
     
    ronm likes this.
  16. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    I don't consider the 30-40lb AVRs with 7-11 channels of amplification to be a genuine flagship. The AVR-5800/5803 is 62lbs with 7 channels of amplification. My "real" 7 channel amp is the ATI AT3007 @ 126lbs. The Denon can hold its own with anything but the biggest of speakers.
     
  17. Spitfire

    Spitfire Senior Member

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    They quit making the real big flagship AVRs for some reason. I think the manufacturers believe that market is covered by separate Pre-Pros with separate amplifiers plus I'm guessing they make more money that way.
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  18. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    I'm pretty sure it's just the cost/BOM. When I touch/use the old flagships, you realize the quality of the volume knobs, switches, thickness of the chassis, etc., is better than what is even available on $3K+ units today. Most of the BOM on today's AVRs goes to the 1 to 4 DSPs needed for today's modern codecs, not the amp or build quality.
     
  19. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I agree that the "super receiver" that is being discussed in this thread isn't made anymore and hasn't been for quite some time. And separates is indeed the reason, but only part of the reason.

    I wonder though how much of that is marketing/psychological. I had the Marantz AV7005 and its matching amp around 2009-2010 or so, and the processor was great but the amp kind of sucked. I think it was basically "receiver guts" with its own power supply. I'm not sure any of the usual suspects makes a pair of separates on par with the super receivers.

    I lament the era of the super receiver coming to an end, if for no other reason then the true TOTL "statement" products made by the big Japanese firms tended to be works of audio art, with the expectation being the amount of R&D spent would trickle down to the Best Buy range. I think for the most part you just don't see this engineering concept anymore.
     
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  20. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Yes, that ATI sounds like a best and very different from what I was working with. I will add just this thought....The technology in a power amp is very durable. It can work as designed for 20 to 30 years and is unlikely to become outdated by new designs. The same cannot be said of the signal processing of an AVR. After about 3 years it seems that there is a new file format, DAC improvement, 4k compatibility, streaming service or god knows what else will come along and make an AVR dated. Having a separate power amp can save you money when you want to upgrade to the new AVR technology.
     
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  21. rich100

    rich100 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Middle of England
    Any thoughts on how a Marantz SR6009 perofrms as a 2 ch amp, compared to a Marantz PM5005? I have one of these on the HT system but thinking about pressing it into service for my listening room (read: Dining room :) ) I can put my old AVR X2000 back into service as the HT receiver as it's quite adequate for it really.
     
  22. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    That might be a toss up that you need to try both and see. The 5005 is about 40w and the 6009 is about 110w? By that logic the the SR6009 should be the clear winner but the power rating could be a little generous and all of the signal processing could add a little "distance" to the sound.
     
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  23. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I'd vote for them sounding virtually identical.
     
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  24. TEKWRX

    TEKWRX Am I Demon?

    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    I don't have the room (or $$ really) for HT and a dedicated 2 channel setup so I'm stuck with using an AVR. I have a Sony DA4400ES and I was never thrilled with it for pure 2 channel stereo. But I recently found a great deal on a Sony N55ES power amp and stereo is MUCH better now. So just using the Sony ES AVR as a pre-amp in stereo mode, it powers the center/rear speakers when I watch movies and I use the built in DAC when playing FLAC from my HTPC/file server. I'm happy for now until I can find another N55ES amp so I can run the pair bridged mono (or an N80ES if I'm so lucky ;) )..

    I've also been using my old Sony Da4ES AVR with a pair of Infinity speakers from the 80's as a bedroom system and it sounds pretty fantastic too.

    I think you can't ignore the value of AVR's if you use them as preamps. You get great sound if using an external amp, and keep the convenience of Surround CODECS/DACs/Streaming/Etc..
     
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  25. Aerobat

    Aerobat Forum Resident

    My Denon 3802 had that quality feel to the volume control...the SR5010 feels like a plastic toy. Not that I care. The SR5010 takes technology like the "HDAM" preamps from earlier flagship receivers in the line.
     
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