Why all the hate for the Monkees' Justus?

Personally I just think they should have used the Headquarters formula. I was very cool with the music production, but the songs were all just okay IMO.

Bottom line for me is replayability. I tried to like it...really did.

The musicianship in the current album could have been matched by them...but this time around they chose more of a PACJ approach...maybe playing a bit less then that one.

 

It could be that a lot of people who call this album "grunge" don't really know what "grunge" is.

If anything, Justus is a pop-rock record.

How in the world can "I Believe You," "It's not too late," "It's my life," "You and I,""Unlucky Stars" and "Oh What a night" be considered grunge? That's half the album.

 

Only a few of the songs seem to be influenced by grunge as I understand it (The re-recording of "Circle Sky" sounds to me like a shade between Pearl Jam and Nirvana), but none of the six songs you mentioned are even grunge-influenced. It's actually a rather eclectic album.

 

They probaly should have gotten Chip Douglas to do the producing,what do they say?when you produce yourself ,you have a fool for a producer.That's the problem they produce it themselves or Mke Nesmith produce it.

 

Most of the songs are just not that good, IMFO.

 

Again,if theey had a producer other than themselves maybe the songs or diferent songs would have been on the Album.

 

That's basically it in a nutshell -- relatively weak songs (and production).

 

Funnily enough, I was going to say "Because it sucks."

Honestly though, I only heard the whole album once. It did nothing for me though. Circle Sky made me mad, because it was an unnecessary remake that paled compared to the original (whether the live version played by the four Monkees, or the studio version on the Head soundtrack).

I thought the new songs were worse. Mike only contributed one (really bad) new song, and Micky's stuff was just angry and bitter (probably because of his divorce) and not what I wanted to hear on a Monkees album. The "bitch" line was much too much, and Regional Girl has got to be one of the worst songs I've ever heard from a group I like.

The 1997 TV special probably deepened my opinion. I didn't like the songs in that context either, and it was (along with the Star Wars holiday spcecial) the worst 90 minutes of TV I've ever seen. I was embarrassed for the guys, after seeing that.

I listened to samples of the album just now, and I listened to Oh What a Night and the Justus "You and I" since I have those as part of Music Box. I'm still not enamored by any of it, but I have to say that, surprisingly, Davy (easily my least favorite Monkee) comes off better than the rest of them. It's faint praise, but his songs are probably the better ones on the album.

Mostly, I just don't like the sound of the album. Trying to sound "current" sure backfired on Pool It, and it backfired on Justus. Justus is better than Pool It, I think, because I'll take the 90s sound over the 80s sound and at least The four Monkees tried to make a group album where Pool It was a "Monkees" album in name only. But, for me at least, Good Times blows both of them away.

I feel that, no matter how conscious or calculated the attempt to sound retro on Good Times was, it totally works. The three surviving Monkees sound great but, just as importantly, sound like they're having fun. They all still played and contributed songs, to some extent, but the smart use of some older tracks, coupled with the new songs written by talented long time fans who clearly get what makes The Monkees great, makes all the difference. Reminds me a lot the "Pisces" album. A lot of love went into Good Times. It may sound "retro," but it also sounds timeless to me.

 

The bad rap on Justus comes from sticking out like a sore thumb in the Monkees catalog, much like Pool It!. Unlike Pool It!, Justus has some things going for it. Aside from Circle Sky and Admiral Mike, the quality of the music is pretty good. Micky is at his peak as a drummer, Peter's playing is very good on both bass and keys and Mike plays some tasty lead guitar, which is about as rare as hen's teeth. Davy even does a nice job on this album and except for a couple of songs here and there, I'm not much of a Davy fan. Overall, it has 6 songs I like, 3 that are so-so, and 3 that are hard to listen to(Circle, Admiral and Regional Girl). It could have been a better album if the guys were in a happier place in life as it really shows in the songs lyrics. If you can separate Justus from the '60's albums, it's not a bad listen

 

I've loved JUSTUS ever since it came out.

 

I saw the 1997 TV special recently - I don't see what was so awful about it, other than that the stars were in their 50s. Seemed in the spirit of the old TV show to me (I'm no expert though). But it was hard for me to see how the special could be considered a betrayal of their 60s work.

Also heard Justus only in the last few months- I agree the basic production does it no favours, and while there are no real high points on the album, by the same token there was nothing really bad either. Ironically 'Regional Girl' is one of the few tracks that stuck with me - I like the 'Indiana Jones' bit of the tune. Again, I don't see how a track like that is any worse than a mid level album track from their 60s career (production aside).

 

Yup, that sums up my feelings as well. Great record on many levels.

 

I like the Circle Sky remake enough.
You and I is a great song but it's almost ruined my Tork's ridiculous bass. Sounds like the kind of bass line programmed into a Casiotone.

 

Don't know if you've heard it, but Chip Douglas' production on Davy's Christmas album doesn't really suggest he could have done a great job with the latter-day Monkees.

 

I enjoyed the OP's commentary. I do and did think the album is an interesting piece, but at the time I was massively disappointed. The bottom line is that, to me, the album does not in any way play to the strengths of the people involved. Pool It had a similar issue in a completely different way. Justus sounds like they went out of their way to make something that sounded nothing like the Monkees have ever sounded, and chose songs that fit the same script. "Circle Sky" as Mike's only lead vocal seemed so pointless to me. Particularly as the opening track. I remember liking "Never Enough" but thinking it was just oddly slooooooow, like they all took some ludes before recording it. "Regional Girl" may be my favorite track. Jones singing a Tork composition ("Run Away From Life") is interesting. Not 100 percent great but interesting, and I'm glad that it happened. "It's My Life" is pretty solid. "Dyin Of A Broken Heart" is probably the track I dislike the most. Micky overall sounds disengaged, where he usually sounds very much in control of the material he sings. Not here. "Admiral Mike" is probably his worst vocal ever. Mike should have sung it. Maybe he could have done a better job. There's an interesting song in there somewhere.

It's a strange marriage material-wise: Dolenz was obviously was in full divorce mode, and sounds quite bitter. Jones tries to provide the light and optimism, which ends up sounding out of place to me. Tork's material is ok but it doesn't stand out. Not enough Mike, and the Mike stuff that is here is lacking. What did Yogi Berra say about bad food and small portions?

 

I don't have Pool It, but I'm curious to hear it. To my ears, Justus and Good Times are both better overall than the rather spotty More of the Monkees which is a mixture of good to great songs, mediocre ones, and a couple of outright clunkers. I would still like to see the 3 surviving members do at least one more album, perhaps with less creative control than on Justus but with a bit more of it than they had with Good Times.

 

I don't have any "Hate" for it, really, it's just that I don't have much love for it, either. That makes me ambivalent towards it more than anything. Personally, for the most part, I just don't think the songs are there. I respect what they did, getting back together to even make the album at the time. I just don't enjoy it as much as thier other albums. But that's me. As I've said in other posts about the subject, more power to the folks who get something out of it. Just because I don't dig it, doesn't mean you can't love Justus to your heart's content.

 

I agree with you about the brittle sound. Poor digital reverb and not-quite-right vocal levels. As I said on another post a while back, Justus would be better judged if it were remixed properly with minimal processing. The album has too many "effects" which take away from its merits. "Circle Sky" for example would be soooo much better if Mike's vocals were unprocessed and more upfront in the sound image. I know he was involved with the mixing of the album, so perhaps the effects were at least partially his doing. The guys put a lot of effort into Justus. It's a shame it was ruined in the mixing stage. As for "You and I", I quite like this version as well as the one on the DJB&H album. Nice to hear Davy and Micky harmonizing on record one last time.

 

I bought this album the day it was released. I have said it time and again on other Monkees subjects on this forum that I loved it the first time I heard it and I still do. As stated before, most folks don't care for it because it was The Monkees with a heavy sound. I bought The Posies Dear 23 when it was released and was super disappointed when they went all grunge on Frosting On The Beater. I learned to like that album but the press acted like it was the best thing since sliced bread. Anyhoo, they completely lost me with Amazing Disgrace. My point being that I think most folks just want their Monkees served up one way. Not me. I like it all. Well, except Pool It. Ugh!!!

 

By the way, Peter's bass playing is amazing to me. Great job on You And I.

 

I think Justus is an excellent album - I've enjoyed since it was first released!

 

I don't think Justus is as bad an album as people make it out to be.
I enjoy it when I put it on. Some songs I like better than others.

Darryl

 

Yeah. The 1997 TV special is silly and corny, but then so was the original series. It's not like the old show featured subtle, nuanced, cutting edge humor. The plots were simple and lightweight and the humor was cornball. I don't see that there's a marked difference in quality between the series and the special.

On the other hand, I do think Justus is substantially weaker than anything they made in the 60s. Weak songwriting, bad production, and a concerted effort to sand down their idiosyncracies and make them sound musically generic.

 

As I said before, I don't have Pool It! (I think I was scared away from it by the bad reviews and the fact that Nesmith wasn't on it), but I finally heard it (yesterday on Youtube), and I actually liked it. Pool It! thread coming soon.

 

It's funny how people keep calling out Justus for it's bad vocal balances, "brittle" sound, and obvious digital reverb, yet no one aside from me is saying the same about Good Times. The new album may be even worse because, as much as Andrew and Adam deny it, a good number of tracks on it ARE brickwalled yet no one has said anything about that. Strange....

As for Justus, I loved it from the moment I heard it. All four guys generating a full album completely on their own terms simply because they wanted to. No contractual obligations, no one forcing them to, not a cynical cash grab, just the stars aligning in a way even the most optimistic Monkees' fan would have thought highly unlikely. A brave, laudable thing to do, IMO and they deserve more credit than they've gotten for it. Some of it hasn't weathered well I admit, but Regional Girl, Admiral Mike, Never Enough, You and I, and It's Not Too Late hold up damn fine. (Favorite song for me: Regional Girl.) They sound seasoned, confident, and hungry.

An interesting thing about Justus: there was an interview Nez gave 1974/1975 (I'm thinking Zigzag magazine but I could be wrong. Been looking but can't find the piece I'm thinking of online but I know it's out there somewhere) where he said in a nutshell, he pictured a Monkees' reunion where they quietly got together to make an album, just the four of them, doing all the writing, playing, with him producing and then releasing it on Pacific Arts with little to no fanfare to see if it would sink or swim totally on it's own merits. Hmmmm....

I know that interview is out there somewhere. It's the one where the interviewer tells him he thinks the live version of "Circle Sky" in Head was the single greatest performance of a rock band he had ever seen and Nez totally ignores the praise without so much as a thank you and starts talking about the lyrics.