Why do some people not like click tracks?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Conestoga Rankin, May 10, 2020.

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  1. Conestoga Rankin

    Conestoga Rankin A man, no worse than any man Thread Starter

    I've never understood this. To me, it's like hating tuners. Click tracks aren't like drum machines, where a human musician is replaced with a machine, it's still a real drummer, but click tracks just help them play more accurately.
     
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  2. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Personally I like to make music that can breathe with the lyrics and singer, changing tempo as the musicians focus on the song and one another. Can't do that with a click track.

    This song we wrote and performed for video over the last month kind of exemplifies that approach. It's not free time, and we played it consistently from take to take - with every take clocking in within a second of the others. But that consistent approach is not locked to a constant tempo from beginning to end.
     
  3. Sex Lies And Master Tapes

    Sex Lies And Master Tapes Gaulois réfractaire

    Location:
    Nantes, France
    There was a time when click track didn't exist and music was fantastic. Go figure.
     
  4. Conestoga Rankin

    Conestoga Rankin A man, no worse than any man Thread Starter

    It's a cool song

    I guess it's just a stylistic thing, do you prefer perfection or unpredictability, vis-a-vis click tracks

    I mean, there was a time when multitrack recording didn't exist, but that doesn't make multitrack recording bad.
     
  5. JamieC

    JamieC Senior Member

    Location:
    Detroit Mi USA
    A click track should never be heard in a final mix. It is, as the OP stated, a metronome for the various parts. To me, it is annoying when its audible.
    Phil Ochs classic The Crucifixion has what may be the longest audible click track ever released. Phil had to have it because he was not playing guitar and it was simply vocals. In this case I am used to it.
     
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  6. merlperl

    merlperl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    My brother used to play with a drummer that would stick the recorded tempo whenever they would play live.

    Keep in mind that these were songs my brother wrote and arranged and recorded HIMSELF. He would naturally want to pick up the pace on some of the material when playing live so that it could “breathe” as someone earlier so eloquently put it.

    When my brother would signal him in the middle of a song to pick it up this guy would actually make direct eye contact, grimace back at him, and play the current tempo more emphatically and deliberately, refusing to alter it!

    my brother called him the tempo Nazi...

    needless to say he doesn’t play with him anymore even though they are both top players here in Los Angeles.
     
  7. JamieC

    JamieC Senior Member

    Location:
    Detroit Mi USA
    Drummer dictates the tempo. See That Thing You Do!
    Course your gig is on the line bucking instruction.
     
  8. merlperl

    merlperl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    Wouldn’t the bandleader whose gig it was and who wrote the songs have something to say about the energy that they want to express when playing for his audience? The guy is a human click track. Has great time though, he just sticks too it.
     
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  9. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Thanks glad you like the song.

    I wouldn't phrase it as a preference for unpredictability or imperfection though - we knew exactly how we wanted the tempo to evolve over the course of the song - which is why every take we did was between 3:12 and 3:13.

    It is that our preference was for a tempo that evolved predictably and an evolving tempo is not readily acheiveable with a click track. From my POV as the composer of the music and the guitarist, playing the whole composition at a constant tempo would have been imperfect.

    Much music is designed to work with a tempo that subtly changes over the course of a performance - that is a great part of the art of what conductors do with orchestras. It is a bit harder to pull off in a small group without a conductor to follow.
     
  10. Electric Warrior

    Electric Warrior Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    A click track sure would help. It's not as if the tempo of a click track would have to be consistent throughout the song.. :)
     
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  11. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    I guess someone savvy enough could program a click track with an evolving tempo - when I use them I set them constant like a metronome - but it would be harder for musicians to follow such a track in an end to end performance than to follow a conductor or drummer in such a situation. It could work in the studio if you recorded every segment of the song seperately.
     
  12. Mook

    Mook Forum Resident

    There's room for both approaches although I have a preference for no click tracks as this allows the drummer to push/pull time where appropriate.
     
  13. wyclif

    wyclif Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    People do have weird ideas about click tracks. If you've ever been in a band, you'll eventually be confronted with the issue.

    The first time I ever noticed click tracks being used in a live show was at a Talking Heads concert. The drummer (Chris Frantz) was counting in the songs by referencing a click track through a single headphone at the beginning of certain songs. After four or five songs into the concert, it became apparent why they were doing this.

    On this tour they had a large extended band. In that situation, where there's many musicians playing interconnected rhythm parts, you have to make sure that the rhythm isn't too fast or slow. Also, lights, video and even pyrotechnics are programmed to run alongside some or all of the tracks. All of that stuff has to be timed.

    There's a famous concert clip of a very accomplished new wave band featuring one of the absolute best rock drummers alive now, and he got caught up in the excitement of the moment and counted in the song very fast. The guitarist, who had to play complex picked arpeggios, was having a difficult time keeping up with the insane tempo and turned around staring daggers at this drummer and mouthing "TOO FAST!" That's why bands use click tracks.
     
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  14. Sex Lies And Master Tapes

    Sex Lies And Master Tapes Gaulois réfractaire

    Location:
    Nantes, France
    This comparison is pointless. As was your first (between tuning and click track). It's like comparing weight and speed, or color and volume.
    Even if few drummers are really great keeping time (John Robinson, for example, is lauded as one of the greatest timekeeper of all-time but still his drumming is human), the most important thing in music is to play IN TIME with the others.
    The absence of click track allow the musician to speed the track up or slow it down as they wish and as the music requires. You cant' definitely do that with a click track.
    With a click track there would have been no Jazz, no Blues, no R'n'R, no Rock, no Classical music either. Everything but music.
     
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  15. DaleClark

    DaleClark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Good drummers can push and pull, even with a click. Click tracks can help provide a solid foundation for modern studio recording when it comes to editing. Today's tracks are against a grid within the software and allow precise editing (copy, paste, etc). If you wanted to extend the track and drop in another chorus from the first half of a song, without a click you could hear a a sudden major shift in tempo when dropped in.

    For live performances, many drummers just use "count in" click and is free from there. Neil Peart would use count in on stage so the various samples would be in the ball park. The only time Neil would use a full song click was when a synced video was on the screen during the middle of the song (Before in ear monitors, you would see Neil put headphones on for such tracks). Neil has spoken about speeding up and slowing down to help the vocalist. I've seen RUSH numerous times. I have heard the band suddenly slow down if their tempo was ahead of the sample they triggered.

    Many drummers also play along to click or percussion tracks that are pre recorded with effects, background vocals, even lead vocals. This is especially true for "coordinated dance" performers like Madonna, Janet Jackson, Fergie, etc. Vocals would not come across good at all when doing high action dance moves. Think of a baserunner try to sing at the same time. Just would not come across well at all.


    I'm a drummer BTW
     
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  16. PADYBU

    PADYBU Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin
    I wouldn't say drum machines replace the drummer, you can still drum unquantized on those. Producer J Dilla's drumming through his drum machines have been very influential to, for lack of a better term, "real" drummers. He changed the way Questlove plays, Karriem Riggins too and many more
     
  17. JamieC

    JamieC Senior Member

    Location:
    Detroit Mi USA
    Absolutely! Doesn't mean a thing as far as talent. He just "doesn't jell" or "click". Seriously, timekeepers like that are in demand.

    Someone once called a drummer who followed the fronts lead doing "stripper time". He said that that meant the drums followed the strippers moves. A throwback to the days of burlesque. They talk about it some in the Funk Brothers movie.
     
  18. Electric Warrior

    Electric Warrior Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    It's really basic. Any recording engineer will know how to do it and will be able to set it up within minutes if you give him a list of the required tempo changes.
     
  19. Kevin j

    Kevin j The 5th 99

    Location:
    Seattle Area
    I use a click track when home recording, because it's the only way I can properly record drums over existing guitar tracks. however, back when I recorded drums first I never used a click track.

    I hate 'em.
     
  20. MortSahlFan

    MortSahlFan Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    If drummers can't keep time, they should go do something else... I also would prefer human mistakes over sanitized "perfection"

    You can always tap your feet, too.
     
  21. Electric Warrior

    Electric Warrior Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    Playing with a click track can be tricky, and may require some practice, as you can't hear the click that well when you're playing tightly.
    Some bands really tighten up with a click - in a good way - so it's usually worth trying.
     
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  22. intv7

    intv7 Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston, MA, USA
    Click tracks are crucial when recording, for purposes of editing. In a live setting, the drummer should be able to play without a click and stay on tempo -- they should only be used for exceptions when there are programmed or pre-recorded parts not being played live by a human being.
     
  23. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    I'm a drummer (and also a bassist and keyboardist, but I play drums as often as not), and I'm indifferent towards click tracks in most situations (I'd only have a problem with them when we're intending something to "breathe" more in terms of tempo, and where the click we're using is impractical to assist in that), but probably akin to your brother, I also have a pet peeve about speeding most things up live. Most things don't groove as well if they're sped up too much. Folks often play so it sounds a bit rushed. When not playing with a click track live, I try to keep in mind to keep things relaxed tempo-wise, since there's a naturally tendency for everyone to play faster due to the energy/adrenaline in a live situation. In fact, I usually try to think of it as playing a bit slower than studio versions, since that tends to keep the tempo close to the original. If it winds up a bit slower, too, that's fine in my view. What's important to me is that things groove.

    Of course, some people I play with where I'm a gun-for-hire want the tempos pushed a bit live, so I have to accommodate that in those situations, but I don't care for it.
     
  24. MitchLT

    MitchLT Two for the show

    Ringo is the effin’ click!

     
  25. cdash99

    cdash99 Senior Member

    Location:
    Mass
    Clicks were presented in an unfavorable light in the discussion of Danny Seraphine’s departure from Chicago.
     
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