Why do some vinyl albums have sibilance while others don't?

Sorry but I have found the better the cartridge I have had the better the control of sibilance, and any other problems. The arm is another big factor.

 

I've heard one. In addition to all the usual suspects—setup being first and foremost—there's the phono preamp. The more flexible, electrically adjustable, the better. Not to mention self-noise, distortion, so on.

 

We are on the same ground here. No disagreement. The most accurate or flat responding cartridges will most accurately or flatly transmit the information in the groove. Including issues with the recording itself - or a physical defect.

But the issue is more complicated than that. Issues like sibilance are often products of the gear and the synergy of the chain of gear. I've had many experiences with a record with no sibilance on one system play back with audible sibilance on another system. Its not the record. I've had sibilance increase or decrease depending on things like the brand of speakers (material the tweeter is made of for example; cloth or metal? dome or ribbon?) even speaker wires/cables (copper vs. silver), the shape of the stylus, the material the platter and/or mat is made of, and so on.

My experience, and one echoed here and in my dealings with other audio hounds, is that the right choices of components can 'tune' the presentation to what you like to hear. That well known saturation sibilance of the cymbals on the original UK Reaction Who album? On my best system its there, sounding like saturation in the cutting level. Its not bad, just the way the record sounds. On my lesser systems, like my solid state system with a modest Technics turntable, its more pronounced and hard 'tsshh' sounding.

 

I think you are right, we are pulling on a different half of the same split hair.
I can't say I have ever had a system that created sibilance that was not on the disk, but I suppose it could happen.
Part of it is adjusting the bass, mid, and treble properly.
When I was younger I always used an EQ, back when you could put an EQ right into one of the tape loops and use the EQ itself as a tape input while having it active for all input devices. I would fine tune my systems that way.

A great trick that might work with sibilance, it certainly works in recording and live performance situations, is to hunt for the bad spot by increasing each frequency band on an EQ until the problem is in your face, find the band that it is on by jacking them up full until you find the one that is where it is at, then back it off until the problem is gone.
That works for hums as well. You can do that with parametric EQs too by cranking the frequency range you think it is in and sweeping the frequencies in that parameter until the gremlin sticks out the most, then back it off at that frequency.

 

Well sibilance is ultimately a form of distortion, a broadening or smearing of the frequency band. When a pronounced 's' starts to become ssshh sounding. We hear this a lot of recordings; for example when a mouth gets too close to the microphone.

One of my favorite examples of sibilance that affects music is on Crosby Stills & Nash - the 'couch' album. Back around 1980, in Rolling Stones rock record guide, the reviewer said (in addition to CS&N being dated, which I guess was true in 1980) their vaunted harmonies were like needle pricks on the brain; harsh and unbearable. That assessment was likely due to two things: the way the majority of original pressings of the album were mastered, and, the systems of that era the reviewer probably heard the sibilance from. Yes, there is some sibilance at points during the playback of most 'original' pressings. Heard on the guys harmonies. But it turns out there are masterings done more carefully, in accordance with the sound of the master tape, which does not have that sibilance. Like the mid 70's George Piros 'F' cutting. (Not including the reissues from the master tape done a few years ago). Take the Piros LP, play it on most any decent turntable of the last decade or two - and voila: silky, natural harmonies, not mooshed, distorted, or harsh. The way their music and the record is supposed to sound.

 

I really can't understand why they would leave sibilance on vocals in, when it really isn't that hard to deal with ( providing it was multitracked and the vocals have their on track(s). Especially if done in digital.

 

Many reasons regarding setup. However if setup is all good, one that I have noticed when comparing LP to CD of same title is when the LP cutting engineer does not use a de-esser or take better efforts to control the issue, and the CD cutting engineer did. Much more of an issue with LP cutting than CD to be sure!

 

Its not on the master tape - it was in the mastering / lacquer cutting processes early on. Later pressings are much more natural. Digitally, the album fared better. The original Atlantic CD is really good sounding, the Gastwirt remaster ...well some people liked it better but I still preferred the original. Then theres the gold audiophile one Steve did a few years ago.

I bring this up because a cheap cartridge or turntable (or a decent but worn or misadjusted one, etc). will introduce sibilance on the 'good' vinyl pressings.

I'm saying that some sibilance people complain of may or may not be in the actual record or even the recording.

 

I can picture a bad stylus subduing lows and low mids and making the highs sound unnaturally pronounced. That would likely sound sibilant.
One of the brightest s0unding albums I have ever heard was the original release of a live America album. That album was just plain crisp. But it didn't sound bad. It was actually kind of an interesting sound.
I had a mid priced cartridge years ago called an AT13EA. That was my favorite cartridge. I have cartridges here that had a much higher price tag back then that don't hold a candle to it. I am not sure what the response curve looked like but that eliptical stylus did a great job of giving good channel separation and reproducing warm mids and highs that were pronounced without being exaggerated. It is now one of those minor bucket list things.........

 

Listen to Maggie May on Rod Stewart's album, Every Picture Tells A Story.

Every original copy I have listened to has sibilance no matter what turntable you listen to.

 

That's a very realistic way of saying this.I never claim to own expensive gear for vinyl playback(even some killer CDs on my set-up have some sibilance sounds) nor could I afford an upgrade and yet- I still am very curious to fix the problem here without paying much in the process.Thanks again for the Mona Lisa observation.

 

I don't have an expensive setup. I use a Shure m97x, which recommends a maximum of 1.75g tracking weight, but when I go with my turntable's recommended 2.5g tracking weight, with the same number on antiskate, sibilance is drastically reduced.

 

With or without the brush down?

 

Without, but I will try it with tomorrow and see if I notice any difference.

 

The tracking weight can be adjusted with a bit more weight on the stylus with the brush down.

 

One of the jobs of the engineer is to de-ess the dub master on parts of the vocals that are susceptible to it. I have come across a few records over the past few decades that have this issue, regardless of cartridge/arm type or settings. So the issue could be with your set up or with the actual record.

 

What your are hearing are tracking issues. Plain and simple. When you start to grasp how sound is transferred from magnetized tape particles to microscopic bumps onto a piece of vinyl and then begin to understand the level of over-engineering it takes to read those little bumps with a needle-sized piece of diamond and amplify that signal enough to move your speakers, you will be amazed that it works at all. If I weren't an old man with a roomful of records I would go high bit digital.

 

I'm always amazed when I hear sound coming from a piece of vinyl. If my budget weren't so limited, I'd have better equipment, and maybe even an expert to set it up for me.

 

I've noticed that there can even be differences in sibilance levels among different songs on the same album. I picked up the recent reissue of Wilco's A.M., and get no sibilance on "I Thought I Held You," but quite a bit on the very next song, "That's Not the Issue." My equipment: Rega P3-24 with stock RB301 tonearm, Ortofon 2M Blue, Harman-Kardon 3490 with built-in preamp, Bowers and Wilkins CM1 bookshelf speakers. I recently replaced the stylus on the Ortofon, corrected VTA by adding a 2mm spacer to account for the 18mm height of the 2M Blue (relative to the 16mm height of Rega cartridges), and painstakingly aligned the cartridge with a Stevenson protractor. Tracking weight is at the Ortofon-recommended 1.8g, and anti-skate is also set at 1.8g. I still get sibilance on "That's Not the Issue." Adjustments to tracking weight and anti-skate do not produce audible differences. So, I don't think the equipment is...the issue.

What gives? Most of my albums have no audible sibilance. The worst offenders are this particular Wilco album and Father John Misty's Fear Fun. I should note that "That's Not the Issue" is the last track on the first side. How can I distinguish inner groove distortion from sibilance, or do they largely sound the same?

I'm certainly no seasoned veteran when it comes to vinyl, but I think that I have a setup of reasonably good quality and have tuned the relevant geometries to the best of my ability. Yet, it seems that some posters here are convinced that it's the equipment and not the vinyl. What else can I do?

 

The track I've been having trouble with is "Find My Way Back to My Heart" on Alison Krauss and Union Station's "So Long So Wrong" on Mofi. It's the last track on side 2 of record 1. It wasn't listenable until I made some adjustments. Now it's just barely noticeable. Another mofi track I have trouble with (inner groove distortion, I think) is Prisoner in Disguise on the album of the same name. I haven't noticed any problems on that Wilco album, but out of curiosity, I'm going to check it out.

 

I think it's fair to say that anyone who's spent a bit of time here should be using a test LP by now to get the best out of their equipment.

 

That would be great if you could give your feedback on the Wilco. Its not like it's unlistenable, and maybe I'm overly sensitive to it, but it's definitely there on "s" sounds in "That's Not the Issue." Could you describe the adjustments that improved So Long So Wrong?

 

I will let you know about the Wilco song. Yesterday I started over with setting up my turntable. Previously, the tracking weight was set to 1.75 (max recommended for my cartridge), but I now have it set to 2.5 (which my turntable manual recommends). I set the antiskate to 2.5 as well. Everything I've listened to since has sounded much better to me.

 

I listened to the Wilco track. If it has sibilance, it's not very noticeable at all to me.

 

Or grab an old copy of Peter Gabriel's So, Howard Jones Dream Into Action and Talk Talk It's My Life
These three have worked well for me as tests