Why is the vintage Harman Kardon tube stuff so cheap??

Does the Marantz and McIntosh stuff really sound all THAT much better than the early Harman Kardon Citation II and Citation V and stuff like that? You can buy a nice HK tube power amp for a fourth of the cost of a Marantz 8b. What is it that would be considered undesirable about the Harman Kardon stuff compared to the other giants?

 

I have done quite a few upgrades using Jim McShane's upgrade path. The difference is about 200 % better!! I have always been impressed with the outcome! Basically there are two upgrades that are offered from Jim for Citation II's, 1) pwr supply and 2) cap. The power supply is somewhat flimsey in the II. I personally don't care for their design but that my opinion but the upgrade corrects this. The cap upgrade, just helps out in the signal path. Jim uses all H.Q. parts. I'll swear by the upgrade!! You can do the upgrade if your handy or Jim can do it for a charge. Check out this site....

http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane/

... It'll tell you everything about the Citation you could ask for and then some!!!

-Bill Hausmann

 

My suspicion is that the HK stuff is more accurate, so has less of the "tube sound" some folks want. Just a suspicion. I know when I got my Citation-II I was surprised that it didn't sound more "tube-y".

 

I have heard this as well. BUT..... I also have heard that using "Ei-KT90's",
You can get that "Tube-y-ness" back! They just take a while to burn in.

 

Interesting observation. I was thinking the same thing about my HK A500. It didn't sound as warm and sweet as I expected it to. It was much more modern and precise than other vintage tube gear I've heard. You may be on to something here.

 

I have a Citation II that Bill H. rebuilt for me with the Jim Mcshane parts. He is right it is a 200% inprovement for a minimal expense. I am using the EI KT-90's and they required about 200 hours burn-in before they sounded right. The Citation has the best bass of any tube amp that I have ever heard including the Cary V-12.
It is also true that the HK sound less tubey than lets say a Mac, but it is a very nice sound indeed. Citation II's aren't cheap, though. Most have not been taken care of very well and when you find a good one it will cost you over a grand.
The Mac's excel with vocals, but the Cit II ROCKS!

 

Could you elaborate on your comment about the "best bass"? How would you describe the sound? Are you talking BIG bass, tight bass, boomy bass, defined and fast bass.....let me know. I'd be curious to see how the Citation II compares with the Marantz 8b, which Steve says has fantastic bass. For those on a budget, it would be interesting to pair up a warm sounding preamp such as a Scott or Fisher with the Citation II. I've seen less than perfect C II's going for under $500.

 

Prix,
I mean fast , tight, powerful bass. I also have an 8B and although the 8b is a better amp overall (IMHO) the Citation is like a cross between solid state and tubes. It moves serious air with Legacy Focus speakers which have 3 12" bass drivers per side. A rock and roll lover's tube amp. It's just not as tubey! ( and boy does it get HOT).

 

Interesting. Steve, what is your take on this?