Why Would Azimuth Ever Need To Be Adjusted?

I'm not saying its not their experience, I'm saying it's only THEIR experience, not everyone's experience, which it would be -- everyone's or nearly everyone's -- if it were inherent in the format not the psyches of the listeners. It's not built into the format, it's built into the listeners.

 

I get it. I just disagree with your premise. Not that the medium effects everyone the same way or on the same level, but it is entirely possible that the medium does provide a means of conveying the sound in a way that is more likely to evoke an emotional reaction than which another medium may. Not that it is "built into the format" intentionally but that it is a consequence of it. I am talking about a sample of thousands of listeners, not a sample of two. So we could find that an average or even a greater than average number of listeners in a sample are more "moved" by a recording on vinyl than on CD. The result is all in the listener, yes, but the stimulus can be more effective in one format than another. To say that is not possible is not a very wise wager.
-Bill

 

OK. I'll play. I got an emotional response from 3 folks who came over to the house last night. They brought a few of their albums, and I had a couple of them on cd. They all liked the way the cds sounded on my $10 cd player better. Wasn't even close. They were just shocked because of all of the recent press about 'vinyls' being more betterer.

 

What a buzzkill. I do like some recordings better on CD than vinyl. I think they were probably just mastered for that format properly. Mostly those with huge, deep bass as it's really hard to get that to play back as accurately mechanically. I mean, you can go down to 20hz flat digitally, where an Lp is gonna have some roll-off. That is something that you can feel, and I don't mean emotionally either!
-Bill

 

Can't make statements like that without qualifying what your playback gear was.

 

He could have Been using a crossley who knows!

 

I don't think that is the case. But fair point that it can take a considerable investment to realize any sort of performance plateau with an analog playback system.
-Bill

 

It would help my understanding if you were more specific about what they thought was "better" about the sound of the CDs.

John K.

 

I think I can. The percentage of hipsters who claim that vinyl sounds better than cds is way higher than the percentage of hipsters who have nice turntables that are set up correctly.

 

Stupid question of the day: I'm listening to "The Beatles Yesterday and Today" on a Bang and Olufsen turntable with a plug and play MMC3 cartridge. On some songs, vocals are coming out of only one speaker. Can an album like this be used to tell if the azimuth is correct?

 

I think the best is to measure cross-talk, like previously stated. Get the channel with most cross-talk as good as one can. Then call it a day.

 

I guess what I'm asking is if an album like this IS a way to measure the cross-talk, in a way.

 

Try it.

 

If you trust your ears to be sensitive enough, but it depends on how hard-panned the vocals are to only one channel. Another way to do it, promoted by Peter at Soundsmith, is to use a test LP that has tracks for L channel and R channel only. You play the track and adjust for the least amount of crosstalk coming out of the opposite speaker (i.e., play the L track, listen to the R speaker).

John K.

 

On "Yesterday and Today" vocals are only coming from one speaker on some songs. Is that the way it is supposed to be? If so, and the azimuth is off in the right direction, would you also hear it a little in the other speaker?

 

do i need one of those?

 

Are you saying the Rega table with a three point mount is a fairly accurate system for azimuth alignment?

 

Yes. When set up properly and not under or over tightened. Rega has a little torque wrench for the job that dealers have. I don't think you can get an arm with adjustable azimuth as close to ideal as the Rega is when set up properly without a calibrated Fozgometer.

 

So saying that, if I order the table from somewhere like Needle Doctor with a Rega cart I can be almost assured of proper alignment?? Would this also be true if I orderd the Ortfon Blue? In other words, what's more important: the three pooint alignment or how the tonearm is angled?

 

Agreed.
Once it's set-up and you don't change anything it should not need adjusting, but I check once a month anyway, the odd time it needs trimming.

 

Which Rega are you looking at getting. If it's the new P3 or better I would order it with the Rega Exact. I got my RP6 from Soundstage Direct with a 2M Blue (great cartridge). They did a good job of installing the cartridge, they didn't however install a 2mm shim because they only believe it makes a difference for fine line styli (subsequently installed one and then removed it as it didn't make much of a difference, if any). So make sure if you want your arm shimmed to specify it. I've only seen one table ordered from Needle Doctor and it was a Denon, worked great though.

If you go with a Rega Cartridge you get the three point alignment and perfect VTA with no need to mess with the arm. When I upgraded to the Exact it was quite an improvement over the 2M Blue. If your not looking to spend the money on the Exact I'd make sure you give the Elyse 2 a listen because it's not everyone's cup of tea. I preferred the Blue over the Elyse by quite a bit.

 

Just a a slight right angle on this one..
When adjusting azimuth using a tone on a test record, when you flip it to mono is the signal supposed to completely disappear? Or do you adjust for minimal output , and to getting it to completely disappear in mono is a fools errand ?

 

No one? On "Yesterday and Today" it seems that some vocals and instruments are intentionally set up to come out of only one channel. If they actually do so, doesn't that pretty much confirm that the azimuth is correct?

 

I'm the thread starter. I appreciate all of y'all's input. Here are my takeaways:

1: Correct azimuth adjustment makes a real, audible difference, especially in soundstage.

2: It's unrealistic to expect that manufacturers would do whatever it takes to make this adjustment unnecessary.

3: Simple methods leave something to be desired.

OK. I'm hoping not to offend anyone here. But it's not just the hipsters who are declaring that vinyl is better than digital. It is very cool to make these same statements on this forum. And kinda uncool on this forum to declare that you like cds better.

Now let's all face the reality that most turntable owners don't even know that there IS an azimuth adjustment, let alone know how to adjust it, or have the hardware and software to get it right. Crosstalk on a cd player isn't even a spec. It's spot on, and that thrift store cd player will give you a great soundstage right off of that dirty shelf.

Maybe it's the crosstalk that makes people like vinyl better. Maybe it's better to have a little crosstalk with poorly placed speakers or bad rooms.

I've been trying to get 3 different turntables to sound as good as my $10 cd player, and '80's cd's I get from the $1 bin. But I haven't been able to get there. I am SO uncool. I still enjoy the albums I bought 20, 30, 40 years ago. But if I see an early cd copy of something I own on vinyl, for $1, I'm on it.

 

Depends what's simple to you. Using a test record and voltage readings with a multimeter or a device like the Fozgometer doesn't seem any harder than installing a cartridge in the first place, but it's not just pressing play. But really, I use a Rega arm, I can't easily adjust azimuth, I don't much worry about it. If your record player sounds bad, azimuth is the last thing to look at as to the reason why.

CD will always have better channel separation than vinyl, regardless of your azimuth adjustment. whether it will give you a "great soundstage" is kind of another matter -- soundstage has to do with the recordings -- if you're not listening to a recording of music recorded in real space using techniques designed to capture that sense of space and depth, the there isn't much of a soundstage to reproduce, and then getting the noise out of the way so you can hear into the recorded space.

If you like your $10, CD player, more power to you -- FWIW, there's probably much better CD players out there too. I don't know what turntables or tonearms you've tried, or how you've set them up or installed them, or what it is about the CD player that sounds "better" to you -- certainly there's always going to be a lower noise floor with a properly functioning CD player, better channel separation and to get LPs to to the level of such low mechanical noise usually means spending a fair amount of dough on a turntable, isolating it well from the environment, etc. Personally, I'd never counsel someone today to start buying vinyl if they don't have a big installed base of vinyl already, I'd say skip it; and I would tell someone who is interested in vinyl, if you want something new and off the shelf that's going to sound great, expect to spend $1,500 or so, and be prepared to do what is required in terms of set up -- not just plopping a cheap turntable on top of your receiver -- or expect to be disappointed. A turntable is a sensitive measuring device that needs to track microscopic changes in groove walls without any additional movement impinging on that. It ain't for everyone.