Why your perfect setup is all wrong: How to perfectly playback vintage vinyl

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Ghostworld, Oct 23, 2016.

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  1. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    Apparently we run in different circles, because a thread like this on a forum like this is completely off the radar of the people I interact with and as such has no bearing on how they perceive vinyl or vinyl listeners.
     
  2. RiCat

    RiCat Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT, USA
    This issue has an easy fix. Play a record once throw it away or sell it and buy a new one. This solution insures you are always the first and only to play. The caveat to all this is if you are one of the many who buys previously owned records. This introduces and totally unresolved variable of never being able to know the previous play parameters.
     
  3. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    I agree the topic here is a pretty extreme example, but it's still just an extension of the same kind of junk science and magical thinking that gets perpetuated in the mainstream by the likes of Fremer etc.

    On the occasion that some acquaintance or co-worker finds out that I listen to vinyl, the questions that invariably follow give away that I'm suddenly perceived as being perhaps not too smart, possible a bit gullible, or maybe just trying to be cool. Based on the countless think-pieces and articles floating around the media about the so-called "resurgence of vinyl" that we've all read, I can't really blame people for getting that impression. There's a lot of stupidity that has attached itself to this phenomena.
     
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  4. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Have you got a source for that information about a 3 gram conical causing less wear than a 1.5 gram elliptical?
     
  5. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    Yes, I'd like to see a source for that too.
     
  6. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL


    Greater contact areas can exert more pressure at lower pressures than smaller contact areas at higher pressures. Physics.
     
  7. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    Line contact styli have a smaller contact area from a plan view, but this is balanced by a much larger contact area top to bottom. Conical styli have a small area of contact from a plan view as well as top to bottom. And usually higher tracking force is required for these cartridges - force divided by surface area of contact = pressure - so the line contact styli are a lower pressure, better tracking, lower wear option. Elliptical styli were invented to fit the groove better than conical, and line contact would be better described as swept elliptical.
     
  8. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    I don't know anyone who mocks me, but if they did, or do, so what?

    Hiding a hobby that you're passionate about because somebody else thinks it's silly, or strange, or weird, says more about you then it does about them, imo.

    If somebody is interested in learning about my hobby, I give them the info on how to do it. As I noted on another thread, playing vinyl is not difficult, doesn't take a lot of money, and can be very enjoyable. No harm in encouraging people, especially younger people, that might have an interest.
     
    Dennis0675 likes this.
  9. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    I'm not passionate about it. It's just a preference I have for listening to music.

    And if someone said to me they think it's silly, or strange, or weird, I'd be inclined to agree with them and show them this thread as an example. Frankly, I'm with them on this.
     
  10. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Pleasant, as always
     
  11. sami

    sami Mono still rules

    Location:
    Down The Shore
    My experience has been that anyone who finds out I collect and play records is very interested in seeing my collection and hearing my stereo, especially younger people. They generally have a lot of questions on getting started, and think the whole thing is incredibly cool. I'm yet to have a single person react negatively much less 'mock' me, but like you say, if they did who really cares?
     
    Bill Why Man and Dennis0675 like this.
  12. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Physics is a scientific discipline and a broad field of inquiry. You may be correct in your assumptions, but for now they're just that - assumptions - until you or someone else provides some bona fide measurements to support them or refute them. Physics. Maybe one of the cartridge companies has such measurement data on one or more of their web sites? Real data, I mean - not marketing collateral.
     
    The Pinhead likes this.
  13. EddieMann

    EddieMann I used to be a king...

    Location:
    Geneva, IL. USA.
    I was at an audio show once where a guy had a room and was demoing a steam cleaning method for vinyl. About a half hour into his first record I figured I'd go look for another room.
     
    Fishoutofwater likes this.
  14. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    I think wear as a whole is a quite complicated subject. Most of the tests regarding this was done 40-50 years ago, and I don´t really think they were complete. Some of the tests can be found at Shure and at other places, but to have a good grip of all parameters isn´t easy.
    That a sharper needle will wear more at high VTFs is logical, but that doesn´t really mean it will wear more than a conical. Other factors are involved with a conical, just those factors that a sharp elliptical will prevent, or even more a sharp micro line. Few today will have the right information about this subject, this is old knowledge that isn´t easily found.

    If we compare with needle wear, without knowing; who would intuitively state that the wear will form a tiny flat spot?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
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  15. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Some notes on this issue of wear from Shure....

    Which stylus causes least wear to vinyl? | Shure Technical FAQ »:

    "If there is a definitive answer to the question "which cartridge causes least wear to the record?" * To our knowledge, no conclusive scientific research exists.

    "I would think that the micro-edge knife-shaped stylus would cause more wear, even though it tracks better than the elliptical, because the pressure per square area would be greater." * In theory, yes. But micro-ridge tips tend to be very, very highly polished, and offsets to some extent the greater pressure per square inch.

    "Could I expect with the micro-edge stylus I would not hear this damage since the stylus would ride lower in the groove, which would be undamaged by the larger cheap styluses that caused the damage?" * You will likely hear less damage as the stylus rides lower in the groove. But we cannot guarantee that you will. It depends upon the groove damage.


    So, in other words, Shure has no record of conclusive proof that a conical stylus causes less wear that an line-contact stylus and believes that factors other than just contact area are factors in wear so it's not so Shure believes it's not so simple to just point to the contact area and force calculation when determining which stylus shape is best for wear. Also, of course, there are sonic trade offs too, see below.


    On Shure's own tip shapes: Explanation of Stylus Shapes and Terms | Shure Technical FAQ »:

    Spherical Stylus
    The typical Shure spherical stylus tip has a radius of 0.7 mil.
    • Positive attribute: less tip wear due to a larger surface area contacting the record.
    • Negative attribute: high frequency response will be rolled-off as the "large" radius of the tip will not trace the "small" grooves containing the highest frequencies.

    Biradial Stylus
    The typical Shure biradial stylus tip has radii of 0.4 x 0.7 mil or 0.2 x 0.7 mil.
    Note: The term "biradial" describes the stylus tip shape more accurately than the more commonly used term "elliptical".
    • Positive attribute: better high frequency response than a spherical due to the smaller contact radii of the stylus tip.
    • Negative attribute: slightly faster tip wear than a spherical due to the decreased tip/groove contact area.

    Micro-Ridge
    The Micro-Ridge is the most advanced tip shape available. It is based on a hyperelliptical design but has additional shaping to the tip to create the "Micro-Ridge".
    • Positive attribute: lowest tip wear of any tip shape AND the best high frequency response.
    • Negative attribute: very difficult to manufacture and therefore very expensive.


    And from a pamphlet Shure published in 1954 but which is now in the public domain, general info on stylus and record wear: Stylus Wear and Record Wear | Shure Technical FAQ »
     
    VinylRob likes this.
  16. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    Given these talks, I should notify my records, some of which I bought almost 50 years ago and played countless times in the meanwhile, they are in danger because of "record wear". They never realised they were, and actually they live happy and sound today like the first day.
     
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  17. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Don´t do it, what they don´t know doesn´t harm them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
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  18. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Hadda boy !;)
     
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  19. RiCat

    RiCat Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Wear is the result of friction and mis-tracking. Now we can resolve the mis-tracking by putting one or two pennies on the cartridge shell but this does tend to increase the friction. Since a clean surface will offer less friction a good washing and then coating the grooves with oil solves the friction. So we always go for putting our two cents in and slicking the surface with oil. A light spray with PAM does wonders.
     
  20. 56GoldTop

    56GoldTop Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nowhere, Ok
  21. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    DO NOT DO THIS!!!
     
  22. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    It isn´t necessarily so that a clean surface will always lead to lower friction, even if in many cases it does; it depends. In principle a lower friction coefficient will always be better, the lower you can get the FC, the less forces to move the needle. But using oil isn´t a good solution, it´s the opposite, you can´t really get the oil layer thin enough, and it is also sticky, the needle will very soon have build ups of oil and dirt.
    I have tested different formulas to reduce friction, some works really well in what they are supposed to do, reduce friction, but there are usually some problems that are hard so solve. One problem is getting the layer thin enough, another is it mustn´t adhire to dust and other particles.
    But as a whole, reducing friction coefficient is for many records extremely beneficial, the sound will usually improve in many ways, the noise floor will be lower.
     
  23. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

  24. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    WOW!!!! What a thread!!!!!
    :biglaugh:
     
    56GoldTop likes this.
  25. showtaper

    showtaper Concert Hoarding Bastard

    Just tell them you just play and enjoy records. That should confuse them........
     
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