Wilson Sasha, Magico S series, B&W 800 series

Hi all,

As some of you might have seen here on this forum, I have been on an extended search for new speakers.
I started out looking for something "small but great" - and then gradually moved up in size and budget.
You can see that journey described here:
Best reasonably sized floorstanders »

Now, many auditions later, I have accepted that I just love the "big speaker sound" of, well, ... big speakers. (Even though the Wilson Sabrinas came closest - if anyone is in the market for a reasonable sized speaker at this price point, I would recommend the Sabrinas wholeheartedly).

I now want to decide between these speakers:
- Wilson Audio Sasha 2 (because I loved the Sabrinas but would like a bit more resolution, particularly in the bass)
- Magico S3 or S5 (because everyone seems to be raving about these, and with the mk2 models coming up they are affordable used)
- B&W 802 D3 (because I liked them in my auditions)

I've listened to the new 802 quite a bit, really like them for their effortless yet super detailed sound, across all musical genres. These are great allrounders. But I am missing a little bit of soul/heart/fun (which the Sabrinas gave me, I assume that this is "the Wilson sound").
I have not yet listened to the Sashas or Magicos.

It would be great to get your views on:
1) which speakers you would prefer
2) if you are able to compare them, how you'd describe the sound/voicing of these

Last, I would buy an amp that works well with these, so no constraints there. I listen to all genres of music, from opera to hip hop to rock.

Thanks!!

 

Just found this:

SoundStage! Ultra | SoundStageUltra.com (UltraAudio.com) | Comparisons on Paper: Bowers & Wilkins 802 Diamond D3 vs. Magico S5 Mk II »

 

I heard the B&W 802D, 803D and Wilson Audio Sabrina, Sasha 2 and Alexia. All on McIntosh gear (C22 Preamp, MC601 amps and D150 DAC, MT5 TT) in a well treated room. I'm a single driver guy, so coherency and imaging is very important to me and I can recognize disjointing of frequencies almost immediately (a blessing and a curse in some cases). Most of my listening (especially critical listening) is at night so I have preferences for speakers that can come alive/dynamic at lower level listening when most everybody in my house is already asleep ... so these are things I think about whenever I demo speakers.

For some reason I did not like the B&W offerings at all ... I felt they were too forward, non coherent and sounded uninvolving at what "I" would consider normal listening levels. They sounded a little better when played at very loud levels, but how often does somebody play music like that? If it were lower level listening ... forget about it as they couldn't come alive at those volumes. Not wanting to offend anybody who likes B&W's stuff, but I literally wanted to leave the room I found them so irritating.

The Wilsons on the other hand all sounded pretty good, with the Sasha 2 in the sweet spot. I know a lot of people don't like (or don't like the idea of) the inverted polarity of the midrange drivers for the Sasha, but it did not bother me and I did not feel it was noticeable ... however, I'm not sure if after living with them for a period of time that it would eventually rear its head, but for the couple hours I spent listening to them, I found them to be very transparent, cohesive soundstage (though not better than a single driver), very tuneful bass and the new silk tweeter provided a smooth top end. They also sounded much better at lower levels than the B&W did.

That said, for my listening tastes I wouldn't take any of them as I like SET amps and high efficiency speakers. But if I had to live with one of those two brands, it would no doubt be one of Wilson Audio's offerings.

 

I can't give you a comparison, but I recently listened to the Magico S5 in a fairly small NYC apartment at length and was surprised at how effectively the speaker disappeared. Even more surprising, they were being driven by an SET amplifier- a Kondo Kagura, which, while powerful, is still nowhere near the power of a lot of modern amplifiers. I often find bigger, complex dynamic speakers to sound compromised by a lack of midrange coherence; these did not have a "reproduced" sound and were seamless. Granted, the associated gear was all top notch, as were the sources. I suspect, like many high quality transducers, the results are very dependent on the associated equipment. It has been some time since I listened to any Wilson or big B&W, so can't comment on those.

 

Thanks for the views guys!

Beowulf - I agree that the Wilsons are more involving at lower volumes than the B&Ws, which is important to me as well. Don't think the difference was quite as pronounced as you describe, so maybe the D3 models have improved in this area.

If you get to listen to the new series let me know what you think.

Similarly, Bill, if you stumble upon the Sashas or 802s let me know How you think they compare.
Good to hear that the Magicos work in a small room!

 

The Magicos are sealed box designs, so they will be a bit easier to place as far as bass performance/room dimensions are concerned. I've heard both the S3 and S5 models. You can't really go wrong with either of those, and the final determining factor will probably be the overall size of your listening space and how much bass output you require to fill it.

As for the Wilson speakers, I've heard several of that company's models (Sophia, Sasha, Alexia, and XLF). None of them disappoint, but they do sound different from Magico. Here, you're comparing ported designs with sealed designs. Do you have a preference one way or the other?

As for B&W, I'm not a fan. But they have their enthusiastic adherents.

 

eb- so hard to evaluate gear without the control of same system, same room. Sometimes, you need a different amp to make the speakers sing, but other than that, so many variables among different rooms and systems, i'd be hard-pressed to make any meaningful comparison in listening to each separately in different environments. The problem is obviously compounded when you can't do home trial (whether because of the equipment or dealer or because you are buying used) and even when buying new or from a dealer, they often don't have all the gear you are interested in. (I would suspect Wilson dealers aren't Magico dealers, but who knows?)
I know that sometimes, show conditions present gear at their worst, so even that isn't a reliable way of getting a 'general sense' of the equipment. It is fun to get out and listen to other people's systems, though, something that I used to do pretty frequently many years ago. Sometimes you learn that what you already have is what you really like best, other times, it gives you a benchmark for improvement. Let us know what you do.
PS: I would hazard a guess that your best bet is to listen to these in some one else's home, rather than a dealer environment, particularly since you are buying used. Is there some loose-knit audio club in London where you might solicit an invitation to owners of the speakers you are interested in? (You could buy them a good bottle of wine or something-).

 

Not sure - don't think I have ever listened to a sealed box design. Interested to find out what they do to the sound!

I half agree and half disagree. Yes, the room, the amps, the cables and a myriad of other factors all change the sound substantially.
However, having just done quite a few auditions of the Wilson Sabrinas and the new 802s, in different rooms and cycling through a number of different amps, my take is that all these factors (whilst certainly important) only make changes around the "base sound" of a speaker. The Sabrinas always sounded the more lively and fun of the two, whereas the 802s always sounded more effortless, detailed and "big".
So I think there is definitely value in exchanging views on this "base sound"... Even if it's only to bridge the time to the next audition!

 

Not much there. Why don't they compare the Magico that is in the $22,000. range?

 

I would think based on driver arrangement and size the S3 would be a closer comparison, but maybe the closed design means the 10" drivers in the S5 are needed to even the playing field?

 

I heard the Magico S3's and didn't think they were much better than my Thiel 7.2s especially in the bass department. I get the feeling Magico's are overpriced. The sales person said it was because of my CAT amps. Yet, they were using $15,000 spectral amps.

 

I'm not sure big is necessarily better - my AN E placed in corners will give 25hz flat in room bass and 17hz -6db - granted it's the size of many a floorstander and my AN J had to be taken out of the Hi-Fi Choice standmount comparison because they destroyed every other standmount in the bass department so they put the J up against floorstanders and in the blind level matched sessions of Hi-Fi Choice it still won against all the floorstanders in the bass and overal winner. I'd take my AN E over any of these three loudspeakers you listed and it costs less than half the price of any of them - nice bonus - the only advantage those others possess IME is that they will all physically play a bit louder. I'd probably take the Harbeth M40 or ATC 150 over the ones you list as well.

But if I were to absolutely adhere to going floorstander I'd be looking at:

Tannoy, Any of the prestige series - the most you can afford (This is the second least expensive ~$3500GBP)

Tannoy | Home »

Rosso Fiorintino, Rosso Fiorentino - siena » Sound quite integrated and elegant.

Focal (but set up the way Bob Hodus sets them up not per Focal recommendation) Accuphase & Utopia Mezzo »

Usher B-10 maybe the best use of a Be tweeter I've heard and the most seamless of maybe any speaker like this - perhaps because the midrange is also a Berrylium driver so the hand off (crossover) of driver sound is better. Usher Be-10 »

ATC SCM 100 ATC SCM100P studio monitors perfect restored by KENRICK SOUND ケンリックサウンド #3 »

And don't discount any number of horns from JBL back in the day - it's less popular to suggest older designs and you may pay large. Being exposed to more classic speakers in Asia has been an eye opener and a ear opener. You'll spend LARGE on some of them though
This is a pretty awesome sounding youtube video I must say
Another day in "Cortez" Jazz cafe in Mito, Japan - Produced by KENRICK SOUND 水戸・ジャズカフェ『コルテス』JBL 4350 »

Many of the floorstanders will still be better served on a small stand

 

The jazz cafe is very cool.

 

That jazz cafe system is strange, to put it mildly. Why would anyone want to pair ML amps with huge horns?

 

I assume that you intend to upgrade your turntable as well. If I was in your financial position McIntosh MA8000 , B&W 802 & A restored Idler Drive Turntable . As it happens HiFi Hangar are selling a Goldring Lenco 88 in a nice plinth for £500....it will kill the Rega stone dead. The whole system would cheaper than Magico which IMHO are overpriced/overrated . A system that never needs to be upgraded good looks, clean & powerful. Good luck with whatever you do . Cheers

 

I have the Sasha 2's previously had the Sophia's personally I like them. Never have been a fan of B&W's, I've listened to many of their top of the line over 30 years and they always sound Hifi to me. I've heard the Magico's to me they sound excellent but didn't offer the dynamics of the Wilson's.

 

DeVore Fidelity O/96's (Orangutans).

My first choice in the five-figure-plus speaker contest; while the others mentioned certainly can sound impressive, the O's remain my first choice to actually live with if I ever get to assemble a high-end system to play music. No other speakers I've heard have such an organic, natural way of presenting music.

(Note: I've yet to hear the big Audio Note E's, but I'd bet they would provide effective competition for the DeVores.)

 

Disclaimer: the only nice speakers I've owned are the B&W Matrix 802s that I bought new almost twenty years ago. I guess that makes me a "B&W guy".

Recently upgraded all my components and have been casting an eye towards replacing the speakers too. I demoed the new 802 D3s and they sounded nice - very forward and dramatic. Agree with others that they seem thirsty for volume. Couldn't possibly justify the price though - even the new 803s (which I haven't heard yet) would be stretching it for me.

A couple weeks later my wife and I (only briefly) listened to the Sasha 2s. We were both struck by how "flat" they sounded. The detail and resolution from the highs to the lows was incredible but where was the drama? Maybe my perception of what music reproduction should be has been tainted by years with the B&Ws (obviously). The dealer (a Wilson fan) explained that their speakers were seamless sounding and you couldn't hear the various components of the speaker (a B&W trademark or flaw?). The combined components (D'Agostino, etc.) powering the Wilsons were about equal to the price of a house. Even the footings cost more than the original price of my 802s!

This particular store has insisted that I come back and compare the Sabrinas to the 803s, which I will do. I believe they aim to make me a Wilson Audio convert. I'm open to the possibility.

I haven't heard any Magicos but I doubt you could go wrong with any of these choices. Coin flip?

 

"Flat" as in not as forward or aggressive? Bland? Or soundstage? If the last that is very odd, Wilson normally have a big 3d like soundstage.

 

This. I don't mean to imply that they sounded bad - quite the contrary. I was just expecting... more.

 

Oh, I almost forgot - I thought that spending some time with the new B&Ws would temper my feelings about this, but they are almost aggressively ugly. The Wilsons (especially the Sabrina), on the other hand, are objects of sculptural beauty!

 

I heard the Alexia's during my visit to CAT. They sounded real nice...

 

Interesting... I always thought that the Wilsons offer more of "it" than the B&Ws. "it" being the joy of just listening to music and forgetting that it is hi fi, i guess...

Have to say, none of these speakers (Sashas, 802 D3s, Magicos) are actually good looking.
The Sabrinas are nice, and the Sonus Faber speakers are spectacular. The others... not so much. Bit of a shame really.

 

Those actually were the new D3 802/803 models that I heard ... I forgot to add the number designation"3" at the end. I have heard the previous model 802's in the same setup and did not like them either.

The Wilsons are a bit more efficient so that is the most likely reason they sounded better at lower volumes. That said, the Stereophile measurements concluded the previous Sasha to have a nasty impedance dip down to 2 ohms in some cases ... so even though they are fairly efficient, you are going to want an amp that can handle loads like that.

I heard the Wilsons on McIntosh MC601's and Ayre MX-R Twenty's, both sounded excellent and had the cajones to drive them. I think you would suffer with anything not up to those standards. If you were going to go tubes, I wouldn't look at anything under 75 watts, something like the MC275 would probably perform good, but I would demo them or at the very least contact Wilson first to make sure.

 

You get used to a sound, it takes a while to acclimate to something different. I had very forward and aggressive Focals before my Sabrinas, I new I had to move on to something more enjoyable for longer listening sessions. Now I find myself listening to the music not the speakers.