Would Hey Jude have been even better if it were recorded at EMI instead of Trident Studios?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by 2141, Aug 21, 2017.

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  1. forthlin

    forthlin Member Chris & Vickie Cyber Support Team

    It might have been "different" but better? It's probably the Beatles best record.
     
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  2. Price.pittsburgh

    Price.pittsburgh Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    No.
    Sometimes the success of something is so massive that you could have never made it any better.
    When you create magic you have to consider everything that took place as playing a part in it.
    The slightest change could alter the outcome
    It's easily The Beatles post mop top era signature song.
    It sold a phenomenal 8 million copies globally with 4 million in the U.S. spending 9 weeks at # 1 in the U.S. and hitting the top of the charts in nearly 20 countries or regions.
    Lighting struck with Hey Jude.
     
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  3. majorlance

    majorlance Forum Resident

    Location:
    PATCO Speedline
    To paraphrase the composer/singer/pianist on the song in question:
    "It's great, it sold, it's bloody HEY JUDE — shut up!"
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  4. ralph7109

    ralph7109 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Franklin, TN
    It sold well because it's a great song.

    As long as it didn't sound like a complete dumpster fire it would have been successful.

    The success and quality of sound are mutually exclusive with a song of that elite class.

    It could and should have been better sonically.
     
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  5. 2141

    2141 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Yes, it was/is a truly great song and single. It's just the sonics of it always seemed a little flat to me, in comparison to their other work. I agree, it's hard to imagine the song being anymore successful than it was.
     
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  6. jopageri321

    jopageri321 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Alexandria, VA
    There is a story in "The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions" about the Abbey Road engineer (Chris Thomas?) listening to the "Hey Jude" tape recorded at Trident, and on the Abbey Road monitors it sounded like "no top end". He told George Martin, who told the Beatles, they all came up and listened, and agreed. Some re-equalization was evidently done before it was released.
     
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  7. The Beave

    The Beave My Wife Is My Life! And don’t I forget it!

    Along with the bum piano note.
    Beave
     
  8. DmitriKaramazov

    DmitriKaramazov Senior Member



    :wave:
     
  9. The Beave

    The Beave My Wife Is My Life! And don’t I forget it!

    And the high hat and cymbals are really eq'd to make it sound 'Beatles'.
    Beave
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  10. majorlance

    majorlance Forum Resident

    Location:
    PATCO Speedline
    Just curious: Is your opinion based on any particular version(s) of the song (original 45/LP, CD/vinyl reissues)? Or all of them?

    I assume that it's understood that a 7-minute song on one side of a 45 ain't exactly gonna be New Adventures in Hi-Fi. This of course didn't stop 10-year-old me from playing both sides of said 45 nonstop from the time I got home from school until dinnertime, nearly every day in the fall of '68 — until I got the White Album that Xmas. My poor mother!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  11. The Beave

    The Beave My Wife Is My Life! And don’t I forget it!

    Not even funny.
    In fact down right disrespectful.
    But some people obviously don't have a clue.
    Beave
     
  12. 2141

    2141 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Well that's VERY interesting and makes a lot of sense regarding the sound.
     
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  13. 2141

    2141 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'm talking mostly about what was played on the radio, and also the original Hey Jude album that I got later.
     
  14. Lance Hall

    Lance Hall Senior Member

    Location:
    Fort Worth, Texas
    The only thing I find wrong with the song is that in the stereo mix the vocal is too treble-y but that's a mixing issue not a recording issue.
     
  15. Bill Larson

    Bill Larson Forum Resident

    Sgt. Pepper's -- Rick Rubin
     
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  16. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I've been attending a sick dog so I haven't read beyond what I posted but you asked.

    I've worked on many Trident tapes. Every time I see that orange legend I get a sinking feeling. With rare exception it means, flat, hollow sound with peaky, fussy EQ bumps at 9k and absolutely NO real top end or any midrange whatsoever.

    Now, most people love that Trident sound and on some things, so do I (Dwight Twilly Band "Rock Yourself"), but for the most part, that console and studio don't do it for me. Early unmusical solid state sound, fiddly, dry, unmusical tonality that really didn't serve the Beatles well at all. George Martin once personally told me that he was appalled at the sound of that studio. Music without midrange is like no music. The Beatles felt that HEY, JUDE had no top end but in truth what they were hearing the lack of was any life in the midband because there was no midband. It's like a bad smiley face EQ built right in to the gear that cannot be turned off.

    So, for me, EMI, even though I'm not a giant fan of the place, at least had a midband that was lifelike and realistic. Even when they went solid state, they didn't lose that ("Maybe I'm Amazed" etc.) Trident, on the other hand, never wanted midrange magic, never found it and if you hear it on the music it was added in mastering.

    That is all.
     
  17. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Yep - I remember that. Also. thumbing through Emerick's book, he said (this was during the time he had quit the White Album sessions having become totally fed up with the bickering) that he ran into George Martin in the hallway who asked him to come in for a moment to offer some help/opinions on "Hey Jude" that was recorded and mixed at Trident and sounded absolutely fine on their equipment, but had absolutely no "top end" when played back on EMI's equipment.

    He went on to say that obviously something must have been misaligned at Trident, and that the only way to salvage the recording was to "whack on massive amounts of treble equalization" He also said that he doesn't think he was really doing anything that Ken Scott (the engineer who took over for him in his absence) couldn't do, but rather since the band had known and worked with Emerick for the previous couple years they maybe felt safer or more confident with his hands on the board, but also said he didn't stay too long as not to embarrass Ken Scott.

    He also said Ken Scott started working at Trident about a year later becoming their "Star Engineer" having fixed all their equipment problems after which any tapes recorded at Trident always sounded fine when played back elsewhere.

    All this is near the beginning of Chapter 12 BTW

    PS - Chris Thomas was not an engineer (at least not yet) he was essentially George Martin's apprentice/assistant - not an EMI employee but rather a AIR employee (and seat warmer protecting AIR's interests while Martin went on vacation during the White Album sessions). EMI contracted George Martin indirectly through his company/studio AIR, the contract stipulating that EMI was contracting AIR for production services (and not specifically Martin) so as long as Martin provided an AIR representative he was not in breach of contract and was able to take a vacation. I have a feeling that since he wasn't an EMI employee (assuming they had a union) Thomas wouldn't have even been allowed to touch a dial on the board let alone act as engineer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  18. Jaffaman

    Jaffaman Senior Member

    Trident's 8 track machine had been imported from the US and recorded with the NAB system. EMI used CCIR, so that also contributed to the EQ mismatch.
     
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  19. 2141

    2141 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Steve, so sorry to hear about your dog. I'm sure you'll have him/her back to tail wagging health in no time!

    So the fact both you and George Martin had similar opinions of Trident Studios speaks volumes (no pun intended : ) And I'm just happy to know, after all these years, that my young ears were not deceiving me. Thank you. :agree:
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  20. kokishin

    kokishin Forum Resident

    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    I'm a big Beatles fan but truth be told, I thought Hey Jude was boring no matter where it was recorded.
     
  21. Vincentrifugal

    Vincentrifugal Forum Resident

    Is there a mono mix of HJ?
     
  22. johnny moondog 909

    johnny moondog 909 Beatles-Lennon & Classic rock fan

    What inspired the idea of getting an 8 track machine for Hey Jude, a basic 4 piece arrangement + orchestra & vocals ?

    Instead of say Happiness is a warm gun, a song with several different fragments & different sounds-instruments in the different fragments. Where you could easily use the extra tracks. Why a simpler track like Hey Jude to initiate the crossover from 4 to 8 track ?
     
  23. Perisphere

    Perisphere Forum Resident

    From what I read in RECORDING THE BEATLES, NAB v CCIR wasn't the worst issue. Trident's 3M 8 track had been delivered with motors designed for 60 Hz operation, so when the machine was fed 50 Hz current, the machine ran quite slow, at more like 12 ips instead of 15.
     
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  24. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector



    :)
     
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  25. Mylene

    Mylene Senior Member

    ZZZzzzzz zzzz
     
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