Zappa '95 vs earlier CDs - nagging question

Hey,

I have gotten a pretty good idea of what all the differences, etc are from http://w1.858.telia.com/~u85821131/, but the main thing on my mind is a worry about the "dB levels" being "raised" on the '95 versions, as stated in Ryko's Hot Poop. There you have it - my main concern is compression.

So, I am curious as to what albums sound better on the earlier CDs (overall, and state reasons why).

I've heard it said that Over-nite Sensation sounds better (or more "natural") in the first Ryko CD. From what I've read, it seems most have definitely been improved in '95 CDs. There are many I am sure about, but some I'm not, and haven't been able to compare. If any have definitely not, I'd like to make an informed purchase...

This only applies to the select albums that were not really modified in other ways in that transition; (and) I am familiar with many other distinctions, so no real need to go "there"

Thanks!

 

By the way, there's a comma in that link that shouldn't be there. I don't think I'll fix it...

 

I will...

http://w1.858.telia.com/~u85821131/

 

Whoohoo!

 

For the most part, these albums were just mastered louder. Many of the pre-95 CDs (Apostrophe/Overnight Sensation, Lumpy Gravy, etc) were simply mastered very soft...the '95 discs correct this.

Now, there is some light compression reported on some titles (Gravy, 200 Motels). For the most part, though, it's hardly noticable.

Barring the EMI discs (and special cases, like the remixed Money), there is really no reason to track down any of the pre '95 discs. True, many of the '95 discs could be BETTER, but that isn't Ryko's fault at all.

An example of some things I've found to be improved. Freak Out sounds a lot less messy (to me) on the '95 disc. Stage 2 sounds noticably better, as does Best Band (odd, for albums compiled so late, but...). Sleep Dirt sounds MASSIVELY better than the old disc. Lumpy gravy sounds better (despite having an audio glitch a little while in). Et cetera.

Do you need to upgrade in many cases? Zappa has a lot of albums, so you really don't need to make it a priority. But yes, there are several big improvements in the standardized catelogue.

-D

 

No they haven't been maximized or compresed (any more)...they're just louder.

The old CD issues had extremely low dB levels which was a common complaint into the 90's.

Most of the '95 discs are variant masters of the old versions.

In other words...the digital echo is still there, the remixes are still there....it's just louder and in some cases it's reportedly EQ'd better.

The crappiest ones still sound crappy...just louder.


Here are the exceptions:

"Money" and "Lumpy Gravy" were restored.

The lost "Lather" 5-LP box set was released and the mastering is superb!

The golddiscs of "Apostrophe" and "One Size Fits All" are VASTLY superior to the regular CD's. (The "Apostrophe" golddisc is the original stereo mix - The regular "Apostrophe" CD is a fold-down of the quadrophonic mix!)

There were secret remasters released of "Tinseltown Rebellion" and "You Are What You Is" that you should definitely seek out if you like those two albums. Night and Day improvement.

Most of the Zappa catalog is in dismal digital shape because of his own obsession with digital technology and insisting on doing everything himself. Zappa's attempts at remastering his catalog (and his boastings about it) are extremely laughable.

The discs that he re-issued from 1989-90 that were "remastered by frank zappa and bob stone" are the worst sounding CD's I have EVER purchased. Worse than a Jon Astley master.

WORSE.

Now that he's dead, maybe someone will finally do it right.

 

David -

Is the new "Live In New York" any better than the old one?

I like the remix just fine (even the guitar overdubs)...but the mastering is akin to stabbing your eardrum with a fork.

Does everything released on Barking Pumpkin from 91-92 sound better on the '95 Rykodisc issue?

Burnt Weeny, Sleep Dirt, Roxy, and Best Band are often mentioned...but I would be especially interested in a new "Live In New York" or "Make A Jazz Noise Here" if they're better...at least "exceptionally".

I wish they'd hire Spence Chrislu to remaster the whole catalog again. His work on the two "secret" remasters and the gold-discs is just phenomenal.

(i'll get to you about that trade soon.)

 

Spencer Chrislu is pretty good. I've seen his name associated with several recent DVD-A titles. The Zappa Trust needs him!

 

Re ZINY...unfortunatley, it's still pretty shrill. I have NO idea what happened with that thing, but it has the same ****ed-up frequencies swimming about that the old YAWYI had (and, continuing on, that Chungas and others STILL have). It's a remix, which makes it even weirder.

As you have Lather, you know what that stuff CAN sound like...what is shrill on ZINY is fine on Lather, strangely enough. And--as it follows--the LP sounds much better as well.

Regarding the BP releases...which things were BP again, exactly? Roxy is one of them, I know...I don't know if it sounds better on the '95 reissue, but the '95 disc sounds *really super good*. The '95 disc also introduces a remix of Cheepnis that, AFAIK, is not on the earlier disc. Sleep Dirt is also a BP title, correct? Sounds much better on the '95 disc. Best Band sounds better, as do the other '88 releases. Things like Playground Psychotics, Ahead of Their Time, etc. are unchanged, though.

-D

 

You should be concerned with clipping. Compression may not have come into play when mastering, but clipping sure would. It manifests itself as a different sounding distortion than compression, but very much equally annoying (not to mention sloppy & easily avoided).

 

Tangencial: I believe the only way to have the uncensored "Money" is with the Ryko 1986 twofer CD.

The lyrics in the twofer are taken from the original so they don't include the censored paragraphs but allude to them.

Help with language part deux: it says "Don't come in the WHAT"?

 

Well, you're getting an "uncensored" Money in the two-fer, but it's so radically changed that it's an unfair comparison to make.


By the way, I honestly don't mind lots of the censorship on the "real" WOIIFTM (and I"m talking the "regular" censored version, not the vinyl-only "heavily" censored version). The Velvet Underground line is funny, but makes Gary's whispering last a bit long in the middle of Concentration Moon; I prefer it cut. The Harry You're a Beast edit is absolutely hilarious in its obviousness, and adds a LOT of character to the song (FWIW, it's "Don't come in me in me" AFAIK). The only "original tracks" version with that is on the demo CD, where it sounds like ****. In fact, the only piece of censorship on the album which really rankles is the Mother People edit, which I "solved" by editing in the correct verse from the alternate mono mix on "Mothermania" (less noticable than you'd think).

-D

 

For What It Is Worth here are my observations:

I agree that Franks' obsesivness with digital often led to the demise of the original sound of his catalog. I really hate what he did with Hot Rats. All the bass is gone and top end is over sibilant. The only way to hear this and enjoy it is in original analog. Same applies to Waka Jawaka, Grand Wazoo and Sleep Dirt. All of these titles sound vastly better in original analog. Also for Sleep Dirt it is the only way to get the original mix without the added vocal parts. Overnite Sensation is good in analog but the 95 cd is not terrible, this one was also re-eq'ed. The AU20 One Size Fits All actually to me sounds better than the original LP even though I know it is an EQ job. It is a good EQ job though and makes the original LP sound weak and flat. I actually prefer this one to the LP. Those are the only Zappa titles I have done an A/B comparison on. Here is a catalog that that could use a private remastering label deal. I am sure the original mixes are intact in Frank's private vault.

 

If you wanted it in stereo, you could take the verse from the end of Hot Poop and reverse it and mix it in. Except for the censored "F" word, it sounds perfect.

It goes: Better look around before you say you don't care, shut your kin' mouth about the length of my hair.

You could take the missing "F" word from the mono mix. Or you could edit the "kin" out and have a "less censcored" mix.

For "Harry You're a Beast" you could move the backwards lines around with a wave editor and make it sound normal.

I might put up an mp3 of Mother People if I can find some webspace.

 

Ehh, I found my way to be easier, personally...less "precision" needed.

The "stale state" of the Zappa catelogue is Frank's fault, pure and simple. Post-his-involvement remasterings have sounded almost uniformly excellent.

-D

 

I believe Rykodisc purchased the complete Zappa catalog from the family some years ago.

Thanks to David and Jason for their help with lyrics.

 

They DID purchase the "catelogue," but not the entire vault. From what I understand, they have complete and total rights to all of his released albums. Yet--as is obvious--they can only put out what the ZFT *gives* them...they can't delve into the vault or anything. That's why not everything is completely up to snuff.

-D

 

Ok... I noticed that the CDs were very loud compared to some of my others, but as long as it's not compressed, etc... I don't have the greatest system for discrimination (age & finacial reasons etc). I do find the sound, for my money, to be excellent on most that I have so far (nowhere near enough), and on the releases that aren't - that's from the source.

To be honest, I expected this response exactly. It's simple enough!

Most questions people are asking here are answered on the site I provided a link to, I believe, and more! Very good site from the alt.net days, with David Goodwin here contributing.

 

They're only compressed if they were compressed in the first place...there was no *added* compression in '95, or on any of the stuff Spence Chrislu mastered.

The "200 Motels" 2-CD is the only "new" CD release with complaints about compression.

 

Thanks.

I'm glad I assuaged your fears to some extent, but do remember: if you can't tell something's wrong, why bother being suspicious that something is?

-D

 

Wasn't something cut off of Sheik Yerbouti to supposedly make it fit on one CD (when they thought the most you could put on a CD was about 69 minutes)? Was that ever corrected?

Also, has anybody received their copy of FZ in OZ 1976. Barking Pumpkin says they shipped on Friday but I haven't received mine yet.

 

"I'm So Cute" is cut short....

...but it's full intact on the vastly superior 80's European EMI CD.

 

I used to have a theory that it was cut off of the CASSETTE master in order to make the sides more equal (and then the digital cassette master was what was used for CDs), but that's pretty much been blown to bits. Ahh, well. Theorizing is fun.

For SY, the EMI CD is still the only way to go. In fact, if you find any of Zappa's EMI discs, you should grab 'em...even the ones that aren't necessarily superior to the current CDs (JOe's Garage, for example) have some fun variations (including side fade-outs, and Joe's Garage repeats the phrase "social activities" TWICE in the phrase "church-oriented social activities". Odd...never quite figured that one out).

-D

-D