Zappa or Beefheart - Who was the bigger genius?

Love both artists. Have heard/read quotes form both Art Tripp and Jimmy Carl Black (who played with both) that they thought Don was more talented than Frank - what do you think?

 

I'm going with Zappa. Not a big fan of the Cap'n's later work. Zappa had staying power.

 

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...inst-each-other-or-groups-or-whatever.360638/

 

I don't know that this is a question with a good answer. I voted more or less equal. It partially depends on if you're just talking about music. Beefheart (I'm blanking on his real name) was one of those child prodigy types and also a gifted and successful painter. The two also had a lot of respect for each other. I have a feeling if you asked them personally they would vote for each other.

 

It's kind of hard to tell, there aren't many pictures of them side by side. I think Zappa may have been an inch or two taller, but he was a skinny dude and Don tended towards the chunky and probably had 20 pounds or more on Frank most of the time. I guess I'll go with Don.

 

While Beefheart was my point of entry to Zappa and I like Beefheart's music every bit as much as Zappa's, I think the "genius" tag more fits Zappa who could also be described as a Rennaisance man.

Don was an inspired maverick who really needed talented collaborators to fulfill and flesh out his vision, and was also a bit of a charlatan to the extent that he claimed credit for the aspects that others contributed to his work and so actively promoted himself as a genius (perhaps not using that word). From all I have read John "Drumbo" French in particular deserved worlds more credit than he ever received.

Zappa really had a complete vision that he could execute at a high level either on his own with his Synclavier or with musicians of a wide range of talent from the comparatively primitive original MOI to folks that bordered on genius themselves like Vai.

 

Don.

 

Just curious here, are we choosing based on music or the whole ball of wax, taking Don's paintings etc. into account?

 

Beefheart was a poet/painter with a supernatural ability to deconstruct the blues in a Howlin Wolf voice. Zappa was a musician/composer impressario who verged on the obnoxious and ridiculous. Beefheart = sincere. Zappa = cynical. I go with Beefheart as the bigger genius. More organic. Granted I haven't listened to a lot of Frank's stuff, as my personal bias would dictate.

 

I would suggest evaluating the whole package if you feel competent to do so.
I don't consider myself enough of an art expert to evaluate Don's art though.

On the art, I basically come out - it's original, interesting and clearly highly respected. I would go to a gallery to check it out based on my interest in him as a person, but it's nothing I would feel an urge to hang in my living room if I did not know who the painter was.

But that does place him in a different league than rock stars who are competent illustrators who find a market for their visual creations (I will not use the word art) solely based on their name (see Grace Slick)

 

You nailed my thoughts on this topic perfectly. Beefheart certainly had a distinctive vision, but he really needed talented collaborators like Drumbo to help him realize that vision, whereas Zappa had more of the ability to make it all happen on his own. I think Zappa offered a bit more in the way of stylistic variety as well.

I used to view Beefheart more like this, but the more I've read about him, the more I'm inclined towards Rfreeman's view that he was "also a bit of a charlatan to the extent that he claimed credit for the aspects that others contributed to his work and so actively promoted himself as a genius". It sounds like he was a pretty cruel band leader, given to a lot of mind games and manipulations, so I think that he was just as cynical in his own way. It's also interesting to look at the way the two of them interacted over the years. It seems like Frank often tried to help Don out when he was struggling, but Don kind of resented it.

 

Beefheart was also an accomplish painter. His original works have sold for quite a bit of money. http://www.artnews.com/2007/06/12/prices-climb-steadily-for-works-of-artist-musician-don-van-vliet/

But I'll go with Zappa. His range of styles, guitar playing, and composition put him in rare company as far as I'm concerned. But Beefheart was wildly talented and creative also.

 

I'd agree that Don's reputation as an artist stands on its' own. With the possible exception of Chris Mars I can't think of anyone else in rock who can make a similar claim.

 

Did someone put a gun to your head and force you to open my thread?

 

They were both incredibly talented, but in different ways. Frank was disciplined and absolutely knew what he was doing. Don was a creative force that needed the collaboration and organization of other people. Trout Mask Replica wouldn't have existed without the discipline of the members of the Magic Band, especially John French, who transcribed the things Don would improvise on the piano. Don musical talent was beyond his comprehension, and unfortunately he publicly tried to make everyone believed he had written everything and taught the parts to the rest, which was the way Frank worked with his bands.

 

Not familiar with Chris Mars' work. Of those I have seen, the other one whose work has a real appeal to me is Jerry Garcia.
Clearly it has never been regarded as great art the way Don's has, and he never touted it himself as much more than something he did for fun, but it shows originality and a distinct style and is appealing.

 

This seems to me like a different sort of thread than what Steve was complaining about. We are discussing two musicians who were childhood friends, regular collaborators throughout their careers, and share many fans in common. We are celebrating the work of each.

 

Both. They were on opposite sides of the spectrum — Zappa was the intellectual and Beefheart the savant. I think CB produced the more original material of the 2, whereas Zappa was capable of absorbing everything and turning it into his own.
In the long run Zappa lyrics wear out their welcome as much of it is crude humour and cheap jokes, he never did better in the lyric department than he did with his send up of hippy/American culture on WOIIFTM and Absolutely Free. Beefheart on the other hand was untouchable as a lyricist.
So ... Both.

 

Captain Beefheart's name itself shows an extraordinary amount of genius.

Most non geniuses would choose a stage name of Don Glen Vliet. He saw the bigger picture.

He brought that name into the subconscious of the world. Ask people if they have heard of Captain Beefheart, and many will say yes. But they won't recognize his voice or be able to name a song of his. Genius.

 

In this case, I think it makes sense to compare the two since they were connected and shared a real-life rivalry all through their careers.

 

Didn't Zappa have some role in coming up with the Beefheart name? Or am I mis-remembering?

 

I'd agree that Frank was by far the better musican, while Don needed talented people to help his ideas take form. As time went on I think Frank sometimes got bogged down in musical theory, whilst Don, having none was able to conceive more original ideas (at least during his Trout Mask/Decals phase.

 

Yeah it was a name for a character they came up with for a very early musical Frank tried making.

 

There are different theories, of course, but the name came up during the Cucamonga years. I'm too lazy to write it myself, so I will quote Wikipedia:
It has been suggested this name came from a term used by Vliet's Uncle Alan who had a habit of exposing himself to Don's girlfriend, Laurie Stone. He would urinate with the bathroom door open and, if she was walking by, would mumble about his *****, saying "Ahh, what a beauty! It looks just like a big, fine beef heart" In a 1970 interview with Rolling Stone, Van Vliet requests "don't ask me why or how" he and Zappa came up with the name. He would later claim in an appearance on Late Night with David Letterman that the name referred to "a beef in my heart against this society".

 

This thread is making me sad that they're both gone. It's like we've just lost the Beethoven and Mozart of the rock era. The void is huge.