Zu Audio DL-103(r) variants vs standard Denon DL-103 cartridges?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by TheVinylAddict, Dec 23, 2017.

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  1. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    I have a Zu 103 (stock) and a Denon 103 that has been put in a wood body (Ewe panzerholz) and retipped with new cantilever from Soundsmith. I much prefer the retipped cartridge, which tells me that the stylus profile is more important to me than what type of body is used. Eventually I will retip the Zu as well. In fact, despite not having that many hours on it, I am tempted to just retip it now anyways. I don't think I could ever go back to the spherical tip.
     
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  2. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    Ian: Did you ever use a bone stock 103 (in the plastic body) before the Zu?
     
  3. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    It is being advertised on the Zu web site as a Zu Denon DL-103 for $249.99.

    I have never owned nor seen this cartridge, either the stock version, or the Zu version.

    My understanding is that Zu make different levels of their Zu/Denon cartridge. I just happened to receive an email announcement a few days back, about this sale and thought that I would pass it along.

    Perhaps someone who is familiar with the Zu versions could contact Zu and provide the forum with additional information?
     
  4. james

    james Summon The Queen

    Location:
    Annapolis
    I appreciate the heads up! Looks like it’s a standard 103 as it’s still in the standard body. Still seems like a decent deal, regardless.
     
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  5. blakep

    blakep Senior Member


    It's just the stock 103, which can be purchased all the time on Ebay or Amazon for $199-$229 (and sometimes less-if you're patient you might catch one for around $170).

    Not really a big sale.
     
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  6. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Years ago, when my table and arm were totally different. So no, not in a situation that is really comparable. I just wanted to clarify, I meant WHICH material is used for the aftermarket body, not whether one is used or not. I'm sure that the stock 103 in plastic body is lacking compared to ANY of the heavier bodies.
     
  7. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Thanks for sharing that, Beowulf. Intriguing! Right off the bat, I noticed that this design opens up the stylus area quite a bit which must make precise alignment so much easier! It would be worth a try just for that. The Zu and Ewe bodies are just big blocks that make it difficult to see under there.
     
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  8. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    Yes, when I was using 103R's I spent quite a bit of time with each of my variants (stock, rebodied and rebodied with retip)-at least 1000 hours, before proceeding to the next modification. In that context it was very easy to hear at each stage what was happening and, to a certain extent, how different bodies, and styli for that matter can sound quite different.

    The improvement you get with the right body can be quite dramatic and almost as much as you get from the retip (better cantilever and stylus). The cumulative effect of both really takes the cartridge to another level.

    I agree with you though that once you have a better cantilever and much more sophisticated stylus profile on the cartridge there is absolutely no going back. :)

    FWIW, some of the less expensive Ebay aluminum bodies are not as tall/deep as the Uwe bodies for example. My aluminum body was always pretty easy to align because it was a bit shallower. The ruby cantilever with its darker color was also much easier to align than something like the sapphire cantilever I'm using on one of my cartridges now, which is almost translucent.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
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  9. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found Thread Starter

    Location:
    AZ
    Blake - in the pic - is that the Paradox aluminum body, or the one from Ebay from the UK?
     
  10. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    That's a cheapie off Ebay from the UK. Very utilitarian but was excellent. I paid around $30-$35 for a couple of those years ago.

    The one I linked to earlier in the thread is a little flashier (curved front and probably better cosmetic exterior finish) but in terms of sound quality I would bet there wouldn't be much between them.
     
  11. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    As far as the differences pre- and post-rebodying, blake has covered them well in the responses and links above. One thing that I differ with him somewhat on - and it just comes down to simple preference - is that I'm not really interested in the more severe stylus shapes. A good-quality conical or elliptical (meaning a well-polished nude diamond stylus, not a bonded one) fits my own preferences just fine. I care more for tonal presentation than really fine details. I have a Denon 103D that has one of Soundsmith's most advanced cuts, and I frankly find it more of a PITA than it's worth to me to spend lots of time fiddling and fussing with it. I'm perfectly OK with the sound of the stock stylus (yes, I realize that this is a minority opinion).

    Paradox's prices have jumped in the last couple of years. I must have caught them when they were introducing their stock and had advantageous pricing.
     
  12. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    As far as the differences pre- and post-rebodying, blake has covered them well in the responses and links above. One thing that I differ with him somewhat on - and it just comes down to simple preference - is that I'm not really interested in the more severe stylus shapes. A good-quality conical or elliptical (meaning a well-polished nude diamond stylus, not a bonded one) fits my own preferences just fine. I care more for tonal presentation than really fine details. I have a Denon 103D that has one of Soundsmith's most advanced cuts, and I frankly find it more of a PITA than it's worth to me to spend lots of time fiddling and fussing with it. I'm perfectly OK with the sound of the stock stylus (yes, I realize that this is a minority opinion).

    Paradox's prices have jumped in the last couple of years. I must have caught them when they were introducing their stock and had advantageous pricing.
     
  13. googlymoogly

    googlymoogly Forum Resident

    As far as the differences pre- and post-rebodying, blake has covered them well in the responses and links above. One thing that I differ with him somewhat on - and it just comes down to simple preference - is that I'm not really interested in the more severe stylus shapes. A good-quality conical or elliptical (meaning a well-polished nude diamond stylus, not a bonded one) fits my own preferences just fine. I care more for tonal presentation than really fine details. I have a Denon 103D that has one of Soundsmith's most advanced cuts, and I frankly find it more of a PITA than it's worth to me to spend lots of time fiddling and fussing with it. I'm perfectly OK with the sound of the stock stylus (yes, I realize that this is a minority opinion).

    Paradox's prices have jumped in the last couple of years. I must have caught them when they were introducing their stock and had advantageous pricing.
     
  14. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found Thread Starter

    Location:
    AZ
    I have heard of "say it twice if you really mean it" but three times? :)

    Just having fun, I am sure there was probably a glitch!
     
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  15. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found Thread Starter

    Location:
    AZ
    Thanks. Still weighing my options, the UK one does look nice in that pic - better than the pic on Ebay.

    There are still two questions I asked earlier that still don't have an answer - not sure if you know, but will ask again for others too:

    1) Has anybody tried to remove a 103 from the Zu body, and re-pot?

    2) Has anybody tried or considered using a "non-permanent" solution to potting, like latex caulk perhaps, instead of epoxy so the 103 could be more easily removed later on?

    I am pretty experienced with adhesives, grew up a house painter, have a woodshop, etc - I can't see any reason why something less permanent couldn't be used - would make reuse easier if desired.

    As I mentioned, I have an opportunity perhaps to get a Zu body that would require the old cartridge to be removed (retipping not an option) but want see if there is anyone who might see a problem with that from experience. I can't imagine there would be, but then again not owning any of these in the past I am not 100% sure if there is something I might be missing.
     
  16. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    My gut feeling is that it would be difficult to remove a 103 from the Zu and then clean it and prep it for another donor cartridge. Not impossible, but probably a real pain in the A$$.

    In the initial stages of dealing with my aluminum body, I did not actually have the cartridge potted with epoxy. Those bodies are a drop in friction fit. Once the cartridge is lowered into the body and seated it will actually be quite secure. To be totally sure it is you can get a couple of drops of acetone between the top of the cartridge body (plastic) and the underside of the top of the aluminum body with a syringe or very fine eye dropper just as you are about to finally press fit the cartridge into the body. You have to work pretty quickly doing this.

    This would technically not involve potting the cartridge with any material, epoxy or other, but would ensure that the cartridge is very secure. You'd be able to reuse the body much more easily in this kind of situation if you simply wanted to scrap/throw away the existing cartridge after 800-1000 hours and pop a new one in.

    You're still going to get a huge benefit from the aluminum body in this situation. Potting will improve it further but the body itself is probably responsible for about 80-85% of the improvement that you'll realize.

    And you have the flexibility/option of potting and retipping later if you want to.
     
  17. boyo

    boyo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I have. Obviously you are destroying the old 103 cartridge, but the aluminum body allows for scraping out the old epoxy. I started over with a 103r and a retip from Soundsmith, which has been my go to cartridge for quite a while now. I retip about every two years.
     
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  18. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found Thread Starter

    Location:
    AZ
    Thank you. This is what I envisioned - do whatever it takes to get the cartridge out, which could mean chopping it up - and then having to file, scrape out the old epoxy. Of course hardened epoxy can get quite hard.... therein lies the "rub". This is why I asked the question about other, more forgiving adhesives.... clearly a latex caulk would be much easier to remove, and would serve the same purpose in my mind!
     
  19. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found Thread Starter

    Location:
    AZ
    Yes, I imagine anything seated / potted with epoxy could be difficult to remove, and moreover to clean it out - including any other replacement body that uses epoxy, not just the Zu.... plus the assumption here is that is what Zu uses (epoxy). So it's doable, but the challenge will be scraping the epoxy out safely without scoring the aluminum body, etc. I am not daunted by the proposition, but then again if the $40 aluminum body on Ebay is as good as the Zu, you would ask yourself "why?" do that. But, if the Zu is a better body (like say as good as the Paradox) then it might be worth it.

    I am going to think about how much work I want to do, but I am assuming the Zu body would be a good body to have if you don't mind a little clean up, and the PITA factor you mentioned. But still not 100% sure.

    Friction fit - yes, I have read how many (most) using a wood body do NOT use any adhesive - in fact the manufacturer states not to use adhesive for a wood body in many cases. One just has to make sure they do a good at trimming the 103 obviously so they don't create a loose fit by over-filing the corners, etc and they maintain that tight, drop-in fit.

    I can see the reason for potting with aluminum though - if you think about a loose cartridge on an alum body - one has to think about the damping / resonance that could be created from the cartridge not being potted - the adhesive will serve to reduce the vibrations created by the cartridge sitting loose in the body. The adhesive will act as a "buffer / cushion" for the vibration factor. I am not sure I painted that picture well, but some can probably envision how un-potted, the space being unfilled could be a root cause of increased issues with damping.

    At this point, I am sold on good potting, it is a must. But not 100% sold on epoxy - first, it is permanent. But then, epoxy also dries up as a hard, plastic like shell. Something like a latex caulk would be a softer cushion, and may even be better for damping (analagous to using foam as a cushion / insulator to reduce vibration instead of hard plastic - foam is a better damper for vibration than a hard medium). To me, the epoxy of course is a great material to make sure the cartridge is attached, but may not be the best for damping and vibration optimization. Am I going on a limb here? Sure. But it can't hurt to try, and the good part is it will be easy to clean up and back out if not.

    So I am sold on aluminum, sold on potting, not sold on epoxy!!
     
  20. senseabove

    senseabove Forum Resident

    I'm finally getting around to wanting to do a rebody on my 103, and it looks like the Paradox Pulse and the MusiKraft bodies are the only ones left anywhere online... Does anyone know if a cheaper aluminum option is still available anywhere?

    Presumably, since some of you folks here mentioned the cheaper UK option as recently as December it was still available then, but I can't seem to track it down...
     
  21. Ken Clark

    Ken Clark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago Suburbs
    I've not heard a standard Denon DL-103 but have the current Zu variant and love it.
     
  22. senseabove

    senseabove Forum Resident

    Has anyone used a Techne-Audio body for a 103? There seem to be a few variants available...
     
  23. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    $45 delivered
    SOUND-IMPROVEMENTS ALUMINIUM BODY FOR DENON 103 & 103R | eBay
     
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  24. senseabove

    senseabove Forum Resident

    Excellent! Thanks! I could NOT find that for some reason...

    I don't see a body weight listed anywhere there... It looks like the Techne Audio options vary from 2.9g to 5.3. Wonder where this one falls... I'll have to message them.
     
  25. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    Will probably be between 6 and 6.5 grams. Not including mounting hardware.
     
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