Classical Corner Classical Music Corner (thread #56)

This John Passion set is interesting but I'd like to veer more towards conventional/traditional than anything too different.

 

This is more traditional. If I steered you towards Tallis Scholars exploration of English Renaissance choral music or the work with choral music of the Spanish Renaissance featuring David Hill and company on Hyperion, that would be a little less traditional. But Bach/Choral is very traditional and one on a part in this music is the new norm. It's only fair to note that the recordings below are at least 20 years old:

 

Oh wow! Thank you! Definitely buying that, and will pick up a copy of the LP (original or remaster) at some point. [EDIT: If I can figure out a way to buy it, that is...]

Random aside: I think my favourite classical purchase is a complete copy of Beethoven's symphonies (recorded with Karajan/BP around 1963) for $9 at a flea market. Haven't been to go to one in a while, but I always try to pick something up when I do.

 

Can you give me a brief description of what that means and why it being the new norm matters or doesn't?

 

Sorry... bit confused...

What is? What you show me in the photos? Or the John Passion?
Because then you said...

Isn' that Thomas Tallis you showed me Renaissance and therefore, by your comment, LESS traditional?

(Sorry, it's probably just me getting confused.)

 

I think we are confessing a general bafflement in our attempts to help you. Your request sounds simple enough but as I explained in post 593 it ends up rather more difficult than it appears, particularly crossing off SACD. Most of the innovative or different choral performances were done in the 80s and 90s when the labels were still flush with CD sales. We would have to have a list of your friend's choral CD collection to determine if he had missed some great performance back in the day.

Joshua Rifkin back in the 80s felt that research supported the notion that Bach used one soloist per part and had them double as the chorus. That has been influential but of course rather negates the customary notion of choral performance you and your friend are seeking. Subsequent Baroque choral music recordings are all over the map as to how big the chorus is although no one does von Karajan style bombast anymore.

 

ASMIF has always been performing on modern instruments since its founding by Neville Marriner in the early 60's. The ensemble has never made any attempt to switch over to period instruments even though a few of its alums like Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman have clearly been quite entrenched in HIP performance. I have found a number of recordings of Mozart works by the ASMIF with Marriner at the helm quite lovely and in fact first-class. While the ASMIF initially came to fame for his baroque performance but has gradually switched over to the classical period, just as many other HIP groups that came after them have done. It is a necessary metamorphosis. After all, how many times can an ensemble record and re-record the JS Bach Brandenburg Concertos or Handel Water Music?

 

Just about all universal players also play SACD's. Unfortunately, due to the lack of support for this format from the heavy-hitting labels, there are fewer and fewer SACD players with every passing year. While smaller labels like Channel Classics and Linn Records (of Linn Sondek fame) continue to release some recordings in the SACD format, all the big labels have quit about a dozen years ago. I recently purchased an outboard DAC and am quite happy about the SQ lift I have experienced with many of my redbook CD's.

 

I have this version of SMP, though I am not sure if it is quite the leader of the pack among my collection. Sonically, it is an excellent recording. However, I know of 2 or 3 older versions that are better IMO. They are the versions by Herreweghe (first version), Veldhoven (second version is SACD) and Koopman (on DVD only). Actually, the version by John Eliot Gardiner on DG Archive is quite good as well ...

 

Strictly speaking, what exactly is HIP when it comes to performance of Renaissance or Elizabethan music? Works of that period are pretty much all vocal (i.e. polyphony). Sure, if we have a choir of 100 members singing works by John Dowland, etc, the performance will certainly be non HIP. But I have yet to see such folly ...

Personally, I found the Handel Messiah performed by the Royal Liverpool Orchestra (IIRC) conducted by Sir Malcolm Sargent almost bordered on the comical when he employed a choir of some 500 members ...

 

It means that modern performances, post "HIP" performances of Baroque/Renaissance music tend to have fewer singers on a part than during the era when Herbert von Karajan could get away with supersized choruses and orchestras in Baroque music. Choirs for Handel/Bach performances now tend to be much smaller than 50 years ago.

 

Speaking of Rifkin, I have a grand total of two recordings (a twofer) on L'Osiseau-Lyre by him in my classical music collection. I have not seen many recordings by him over the years ...

 

Bach tends to be more "Traditional" or at least played more frequently than music of the Renaissance. It would really help to have more composer names than Bach and Haydn. From your description of the likes of this person you may be looking for one of the recent repackagings of older classical recordings such as those found on the Brilliant label or some of the recent big boxes from Universal and Warners. But a little more information would be helpful.

 

I keep replaying Judy Collins' "Wildflowers" and "In My Life."

 

Speaking of Karajan, I read that when he was running the annual Salzburg Festival, he once considered inviting Sir Colin to conduct Handel Messiah. Unfortunately, it never happened. Colin Davis was probably the first English conductor who turned away from the Victorian style performance with supersized choir ...

 

The Tallis Scholars are first rate when it comes to English Renaissance music ...

 

The L'Oiseau-Lyre label really did not record many JS Bach choral works. It was a bit of an impulse purchase for me when I bought the twofer at Tower.

 

I have a bunch of HMV and Columbia stereo LPs of this vintage,though not this particular one.

 

Sorry, I don't know how else to tag you all so you see this post. I also don't understand why Classical doesn't have it's own forum here and why the most diverse genre of music in history needs to be confined to just one meandering, overpopulated, and disorganised thread. But oh well...

Ok, allow me to clarify some things...
First of all, thank you so much for the racking of brains that is going on just in the attempt to help me find a birthday gift of substance for my friend. There's a collection going around to buy him some massive something or other that all his closer friends and girlfriend think he'll like and that my wife and I don't want any part of because when we hang out with him we always end up talking about music of several genres and his face lights up when he tells me about choral music and his studies in University.
So to clarify:
- It is my aforementioned lack of knowledge of classical recordings that made me mention St Martin in the Fields and Neville Mariner. Probably from some weird image association with the artwork of the few Classical CDs I own. When I went to look at the disc I was thinking of of the Mozart Requiem I have (still fully convinced it was St Martin in the Fields) I found I was absolutely wrong. It WAS period instruments but it was Christopher Hogwood on Decca. I have the artwork if anyone's interested in reading credits that I may not know the importance of. So, we can all safely jump off the St Martins in the Fields mention as it was clearly nothing more than my ignorance that brought that up.
- I have to admit I have no idea what "HIP" means.
- Also, with his knowledge of former pressings and a collection... He doesn't have in his possession nearly as much Classical in his CDs as you would expect. In fact he doesn't have that many CDs at all. And no, it's highly unlikely that he knows about all these recordings from the 80s and 90s because, well, first of all I know him and he's not like me where the collection of CDs and vinyl is concerned. Second of all, he's just turned 30 and wasn't collecting Classical CDs in the 80s or 90s. And while that isn't a definite barrier to owning them today, I can safely say he isn't someone who would know about the minutia of Decca vs Deutsche Grammophon vs other labels and their various pressings.

Anything choral, really, is bound to send him to the moon but I just wanted to narrow down the field to something that is very likely to make him enjoy what he gets. So, I focussed on two things I knew he liked, period instruments and choral work even if they're completely separate worlds. But if I had to lean on one, it would be the choral he'd appreciate more because he studied it and even performance-wise, so he was singing it too.

 

Meandering, overpopulated and disorganised....Yeah, that's the CMC here, and I love every bit of it.

 

HIP - Historically Informed Performance

If he doesn't have that many CDs, then I would recommend some kind of budget box of Bach choral works. Unfortunately my first choice has become somewhat scarce and has definitely crept up in price - the DG set of John Eliot Gardiner's Bach choral recordings. It still appears to be available through Amazon.co.uk and mdt.co.uk. A perusal of my favorite sites did not reveal any other Bach boxes that excited me. And for the moment, not very many on sale at my two go-to e-tailers, PrestoClassical and mdt.

Maybe take a chance on expanding his appreciation with the Tallis Scholars (recommended by Robin and myself). Another interesting choice might be Arvo Part, who I suspect is the most widely appreciated living composer, and whose music recalls the sounds of the Middle Ages. His Passio would be a good choice.

 

Really enjoying the Janacek/Mackerras opera set. Can't believe these operas are still somewhat rare birds in opera houses.

 

You know, after listening to them for some time last night, I really liked them. They have one disc in particular of Christmas carols that I think he'd really like for historical reasons. Plus he's English so he loves choral works from his homeland. But that Thomas Tallis disc looks fantastic as well... and for myself as well!

Classical seems such a challenging mountain from where I sit but then people tell me that about early 20thC Popular Music, Jazzand film and they can't get how I keep all the names, songwriters, instrumentalists, producers, labels, directors, cameramen, costume designers, etc etc etc in my head. To be fair this also happens with sports history where I often boggle people with my ability to remember a specific player on a specific team and the goal, homerun, wristshot that won them game X, Y or Z. So, I know I have the ability to dive into Classical in the same way as with sports and music. I was certainly raised on enough of it but often describing the sound I like confuses people trying to help me more than helping them target what I like. I'm able to do this for people wanting to get into Jazz but I've even read books trying to hone in on what Classical I like and it often leaves me confused. One day, I suppose.

 

Jordi Savall and the several configurations he leads have many recordings that might fit the bill. I would suggest his Monteverdi Vespers, the three El Cant de la Sibila recordings, Carlos V and Misteri D'Elx as a start. All his recordings, which are released though his Alia Vox label, have beautiful sound and are easily available via Amazon.

 

I've been at this since I was 13. There is so much music to explore right now, it's so easy to find and there's so much of it that it becomes daunting. But note what you really like, find out what music works for you. If you hear something that really moves you, make a note of it, find out the proper name and write it down, if only as a mnemonic device for retaining the name in your head. I suppose having to do this sort of a thing in a record store for years reinforced this sort of behavior. But it appears that you would have no problem with the territory once you get used to it.

Here's a favorite bit of 16th century sacred choral music, Josquin des Prez' setting of "Ave Maria." If you like this sort of thing you'll like this sort of thing. That is to say, this is a glorious example of 16th century polyphony. In addition to the Peter Philips/Tallis Scholars recordings of this music there are older, more 'traditional' and less 'Historically Informed' performances by Kings College Cambridge on Decca labels [originally Argo]. There are also excellent recordings of this music on the Hyperion imprint featuring a number of differing vocal ensembles using an approach more similar to Peter Philips if not as severe. There are also some excellent Brilliant Boxes of 16th century sacred choral music, lots of music for little money.