1950s Capitol Records D and N vinyl Stampers: What's the Real Deal?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Sep 19, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Page 8 of 11
  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    So wacky.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Feb 20, 2015
    #176
  2. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    My *guess* would be from tapes over there on the 1N...
     
    MMM, Feb 20, 2015
    #177
  3. Bobbo

    Bobbo Well-Known Member

    Location:
    New Mexico
    Can't get the quotes to work! :cry:
    The Wagner LP looks like a Scranton pressing. The weird typeface 'Stereo' is printed in is a clue.
     
    Bobbo, Feb 20, 2015
    #178
  4. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    ^Hit "Reply" under the post you want to quote, not "Quote". Should work...
     
    MMM, Feb 20, 2015
    #179
  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Not quite as extreme as the D66 cut, but in the ballpark!
    D57.jpg
    UK pressing from US parts?
    D57Label.jpg
    I went ahead and bought this LP when I spotted it earlier today, but haven't played it yet.
     
    MLutthans, Mar 19, 2015
    #180
  6. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Interesting...looks like cut in LA, with other metalwork done in the UK (?).
     
    MMM, Mar 19, 2015
    #181
  7. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    Weird? That's Ludlow Tempo Heavy. But they indeed are Scranton - and not just based on the label fonts from Keystone Printed Specialties, but also the stamped type in the deadwax that spelled out the lacquer numbers.
     
    W.B., Mar 19, 2015
    #182
  8. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    What's the pitch of the lead-in - 15 or 32?
     
    W.B., Mar 19, 2015
    #183
  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    32....and a whole lot of dust on my scanner glass!
    LeadInD57.jpg
     
    MLutthans, Mar 20, 2015
    #184
  10. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    Then it must've been cut before 1960 - and if a Hollywood cut, the metal part used in England lasted quite a long time to be used for 1969-era lime green label pressings. (The way the catch groove was spaced and cut also was a clue of Hollywood origin.)
     
    W.B., Mar 20, 2015
    #185
  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Wait, a pre=1960 lacquer with #57 on it? Did they drop 56 of them or something?
     
    Steve Hoffman, Mar 20, 2015
    #186
  12. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Yeah, there's something not lining up with that. I fully trust the D57 number -- no problem there. I've got a USA pressing from the 1970s that's up to 69, and the album was always a big seller, but I don't see any way that a pre-1960 lacquer has a number that high. My circa 1959 pressing (9:00 logo, vertical "High Fidelity" text, pre-"spires") is D11 already, and my circa 1963 (very early 12:00 logo - maybe '62???) is up to 21.
     
    MLutthans, Mar 20, 2015
    #187
  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    See, if this was the MONO version, maybe, but the stereo? No way, unless they blew cutting on 50 lacquers or something. Makes no sense whatsoever. Each metal master can make any number of mothers, and mothers stampers. No reason to go that high, especially for a stereo issue that was first released in 1958.. That's 57 lacquers in two years? Just not possible.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Mar 20, 2015
    #188
    MLutthans likes this.
  14. MickAvory

    MickAvory Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    Are we so certain that these codes mean lacquer numbers and not MOTHER or STAMPER numbers? That could account for the issues coming up in this thread. Like Steve says, it seems odd to screw up that many lacquers in only two years to have the jump.
     
    MickAvory, Mar 20, 2015
    #189
  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Can't stamp a number in metal (I mean you can, but they never did it like that). The numbers were stamped in the soft lacquer.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Mar 20, 2015
    #190
  16. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    It's not on this UK LP under discussion, but at what phase in the production process was the MASTERED BY CAPITOL "stamp" added? Isn't that raised upward (as opposed to etched downward)?
     
    MLutthans, Mar 20, 2015
    #191
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Added during lacquer cutting.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Mar 20, 2015
    #192
  18. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    That's what I figured. So, how does it wind up being ridged, not etched? (I'm probably just missing something really obvious. I feel stupid even asking.) Or does it just LOOK ridged?
     
    MLutthans, Mar 20, 2015
    #193
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I guess they could have stamped the metal with that but I never checked the ridges (leaves fingerprints).
     
    Steve Hoffman, Mar 20, 2015
    #194
  20. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    I can concur: how the stamp was affixed to the lacquer differed significantly between Hollywood (A/B, F, H/J) and New York (R, W/X) cuts. (And yes, the MASTERED BY CAPITOL was on the last year or so of lacquers cut East.) Same way the stamped characters on Columbia LP and 45 lacquers were put on. And so forth.

    The thing is this: Around late 1960/early 1961, Capitol's Hollywood studios switched their LP lacquer cutting MO so that instead of a 32-pitch lead-in, they cut with a 15-pitch lead-in. This was around the same time they switched lead-in cutting on 45's from 8 pitch to 15 pitch. New York followed by mid-1961. (Don't forget, the future F/G mono setup was cutting 1/8" eccentric grooves as late as the end of 1960.)

    What lead-in pitch is on your D21 - 32 or 15?
     
    W.B., Mar 20, 2015
    #195
  21. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    The 360 embossed ridges were part of the mold coining, and added while the stamper was being prepared for pressing records.
     
    W.B., Mar 20, 2015
    #196
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    I checked my D21. It's actually a W21, so....a Waddell contract pressing, no?

    That said, I've got several pressings of this album.

    Here again is the UK LP that is under discussion, a D57, assumedly cut in the US and pressed in the UK:
    [​IMG]
    The lines on the ruler are 1/32nd of an inch. Here, again, is the lead-in groove on that UK D57, showing 32 lines per inch:
    Screen shot 2015-03-21 at 12.00.50 AM.png

    I've got a few 1970s USA cuts of the same album, but here's one (below) that's especially interesting (in terms of this lead-in minutiae). It's a yellow label pressing, and those were produced from, what....1973-79, give or take???? One side is a G67 cut, and clearly uses 15 lines per inch:
    OTL G67Yellow.jpg

    The other side of the same LP is an F50, and has 32 spacing:
    OTL F50Yellow.jpg

    Other USA stereo cuts I have for this title:
    J47 = 15 LPI (Yellow label)
    J62 = 15 LPI (Yellow label)

    H6#2 = 15 LPI (orange-ish/reddish label; same era, but with a change in catalog number, so it appears they re-started the cut count)
    F4 = 32 (flip side of same orange-ish, etc.)

    H69 = 15 (same era, same reddish label, but with earlier/original 1053 catalog number)
    G5 = 15 (flip side of same album; apparently with the restarted cut sequence????)

    H1 on both sides = 15 (1969 Record Club release, #ST-8-1053, pressed at Decca, but apparently cut at Capitol)

    D11 = 32 (circa 1958/59 rainbow "text" label)
    D14 = 32 (flip side)
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2015
    MLutthans, Mar 21, 2015
    #197
    Simon A likes this.
  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Hang on!

    I just realized that I only checked side two of that UK LP, the D57 copy that had the 32 LPI lead-in. Side one is a D43 cut, and is cut at 15, so....

    UK D43 side one:
    Side 1 UK D43.jpg

    UK D57 side two:
    [​IMG]
     
    MLutthans, Mar 21, 2015
    #198
    Simon A likes this.
  24. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    No . . . a New York cut made after 1963, on the master stereo Scully 601 lathe. But yeah, this record was in print for so many years that this whole cutting trajectory could only be deemed - as Our Host would call it - "wacky."
     
    W.B., Mar 21, 2015
    #199
    McLover likes this.
  25. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    @W.B. --

    I see we've actually already posted about that very pressing in another thread:
     
    MLutthans, Mar 21, 2015
    #200
Page 8 of 11
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine