Kenny Dorham, "Quiet Kenny": Does every version have the same 'skip' on "Alone Together"?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by 2xUeL, Jun 16, 2015.

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  1. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    I have FLAC files from the OJC CD and in the past year it came to my attention that at the 22 second mark "Alone Together" has a 'skip' of sorts in it. So I took to the web, finding two other digital 'rips', one sounding exactly like mine (below) and the other with a different panning, possibly the RVG Edition, and both have the same skip! :mad: Will I be able to find a version without this skip or is this possibly some sort of a problem with the master tape??

    @Steve Hoffman: I noticed you were involved in mastering a reissue of this, do you have any idea of what I'm talking about?

     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I mastered this? News to me.. On CD?
     
  3. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
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  4. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Were you quoting someone in that post??
     
  5. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
  6. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    The same "skip" is there in the RVG edition that I have. I assume it's a slightly out-of-tempo edit or a splice. There are a couple of others on that LP IIRC. Prestige albums don't have edits/inserts as often as do albums on more major labels such as Columbia, but they tend to be less seamless when they are there. There are some edits, as I recall, in Wilbur Harden's performances on Standard Coltrane for example.

    I agree that this example is unusually glaring.
     
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  7. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Thanks Maggie. I just realized that I know someone (via the web) with an original pressing...gonna ask them about this to see if it goes back that far!
     
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  8. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    Analogue production is working on a reissue of this album. I have the 2009 reissue and will check.
     
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  9. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2015
  10. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    Maggie beat me to it.
     
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  11. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I'd just like to note that I too am obsessive in this way and I always check Youtube and Spotify about obvious splices/dropouts/skips to see if they carry over to multiple editions of jazz LPs. Most recently I recall checking different editions of Art Pepper's Intensity because of a curious moment on one of the tracks (I believe it was "Long Ago and Far Away" which has an awkward splice).
     
  12. pbuzby

    pbuzby Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, US
    That does sound like a digital glitch. I had a record club CD of Cannonball Adderley's Somethin' Else with a similar skip in the last track "Dancing In The Dark" that I guess was unique to that record club version, as I was able to find another one without the skip.
     
  13. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    At the Jazz Record Center here in Manhattan there's some sort of new vinyl reissue copy, appears to be double-LP from what I recall, I guess I thought that was Analogue Productions but maybe it's not...what is it? Anybody have any ideas, a newer audiophile double-LP reissue?

    EDIT: According to Discogs, Analogue Productions already did a 2xLP issue in 2004, must be that one.
     
  14. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    On a side note, while the original LP was only issued in mono, I believe all subsequent reissues have been stereo, which I suspect is due to the fact that at some point after Blue Note switched over to Van Gelder's '50/50 system' in late 1958, Prestige and New Jazz followed, which would mean that this album was recorded to two-track tape only. I think the natural reverb of Englewood Cliffs coupled with Van Gelder's EMT plate sounds fantastic on this album, and perhaps the stereo spread brings that out more.

    But I hear a significant difference between the panning on the OJC and RVG CDs. It appears that Van Gelder elected to pull the left channel almost center on the RVG Edition (which I know he did with other digital reissues like Blue Train and Sonny's Crib). The wide spread of the OJC version is great through speakers, but I think I like Dorham being more centered on headphones. Due to the $2,000+ price tag, one can only dream of how the original mono sounds, sigh.
     
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  15. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Yes, several of the Prestige RVG editions of 50s sessions narrow the stereo spread considerably (again, my reference is the 1958 Coltrane recordings). Ironically, by this point (2006) RVG had halted his practice of narrowing the stereo spread for his Blue Note series. Only the 1999-2003 series (or so) of RVGs for Blue Note are significantly narrowed.

    The 60s sessions in the Prestige RVG series are handled with a lighter touch IMO. The various Dolphy releases, for example, don't sound very different from the OJCs. I don't have most of them duplicated (except for Out There) but I do have shared tracks on the RVG Outward Bound and the OJC Here and There to confirm this supposition.
     
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  16. JRM

    JRM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eugene, Oregon
    There is also a planned 2015 release...vinyl and SACD...

    http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/81994/Kenny_Dorham-Quiet_Kenny-200_Gram_Vinyl_Record
     
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  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Sorry, I'm so hazy on this one. I do want to mention your fine thread title. You put the album in quotes, etc. Very good.
     
  18. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    I think he brought the left channel center on the RVG Editions of Blue Train and Sonny's Crib because the center was completely empty on the master tape, something that he didn't usually do, usually the piano is center on his earliest stereo masters (but not the bass).

    Now that I think about it, my OJC CD of Wheelin' and Dealin' is a very early stereo example of a Prestige album (September '57...ironically, same month as Sonny's Crib and Blue Train). I've always wondered if late '57 and '58 Prestige stuff was actually recorded to two-track tape, but I always guessed it wasn't because I'm pretty sure most other reissues from this period are mono...but I could be mistaken about that, maybe most Prestige reissues I have are prior to 1958...

    So you're saying that the Coltrane reissue is stereo? That was recorded in May '57. That was around when he started recording Blue Note to two-track. I'm still holding though that I don't think he was as consistent recording Prestige/New Jazz to two-track though because so many reissues are mono...
     
  19. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Sorry, no, I was referring to Coltrane's (later) 1958 sessions, making up albums like Stardust, Standard Coltrane, Black Pearls, and Settin' the Pace. Curiously, Soultrane and the album with Kenny Burrell, from earlier in 1958, have always been released in mono. It's weird that Wheelin' and Dealin', which is from 1957 as you say but sounds notably different (to me) from other Prestige sessions of the period, is in stereo. Traneing In was recorded just a few weeks earlier and it's mono. And of course Soultrane, etc. is from 5 months later and it's mono too.
     
  20. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Dubbed to mono from two track by Van Gelder, immed. after recording, two track erased.
     
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  21. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    What album, Coltrane, Soultrane? I refuse to believe that Van Gelder ever dubbed anything! :p Which would mean it may have actually been recorded to full-track originally. Apparently he recorded Blue Note to full-track (and two-track) until October '58. My guess is Weinstock flirted with stereo every now and then during that period but that most Prestige/New Jazz session prior to 1959 were recorded to full-track...? CMIIW :)
     
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    The Van Gelder way (I guess with certain artists) was to record live to his new twin-track machine, edit the takes and then "mix" down to mono for Prestige. Why? Sigh. Don't know but the paperwork exists on this wacky way of doing it. And of course, Sonny Rollins Saxophone Colossus has about 30 edits in it (that we can clearly hear) but the actual master tape is clean. The edits were on the twin track work part. Too damn bad he didn't save it. He saved a few (Gil Evans, etc.) that were able to be mixed into stereo a few years ago but the rest, I believe were wiped or dumped or both. Oh well..
     
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  23. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher Thread Starter

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Well if the splices are audible and there's no splices on the (current) master tape, that obviously means there was a dub--at some point in time. But I don't believe there's any record of him having two-track as early as 1956, when Sax Colossus was recorded (I think we already discussed this in a thread about Impulse)...?
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Yes, sorry.
     
  25. bresna

    bresna Senior Member

    Location:
    York, Maine
    I have the XRCD version of this title (well worth picking up, BTW) and it sounds similar to this youtube OJC version. But this doesn't sound like a splice to me. It sounds like Kenny half-valved a note and maybe even missed (flubbed) the next note a bit.
     
    Vinyl Fan 1973 and 2xUeL like this.
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