Rush - new 2015 vinyl and hi-res reissues thread. (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ken_McAlinden, Apr 27, 2015.

  1. vanye

    vanye Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    No record can ever be pressed without sound quality degradation. It's just the way the vinyl cookie crumbles. :hide:
     
  2. Majestyk

    Majestyk Rush Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    Yet a countless number of times it trumps digital. The Rush reissues are no exception.
     
    cement_head likes this.
  3. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident

    The Rush reissues are an exception actually. If your analog setup is better than your digital setup I can see where you would feel that way but the vinyl was cut from the very same files that you can download so there is no possible way all things being equal that the vinyl sounds better in this case. I have compared S/T and 2112 and yes the vinyl sounds great but it isn't better than the 24/192 downloads available.
     
    fuhrsy31, Veovis, DBR70 and 5 others like this.
  4. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    Pretty much the reason i'm going download on these Jim, I pretty much have all the old pressings, cd/vinyl, I have enough hard copies :laugh:
    Thinking any differences would be what my cart/pre adds or takes on these new ones
     
    Mij Retrac likes this.
  5. Majestyk

    Majestyk Rush Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    In my experience a $1000+ vinyl setup with trump any digital setup. So when you say 2112 doesn't sound better on vinyl, then your analog setup is inferior to your digital. Incidentally, all my Rush vinyl has been digitized to flac files, and I'm playing the digital-downloads and the vinyl on the same equipment. All the Rush vinyl comes out on top every time. And as a matter of fact, I am not impressed with the digital 2112 and I thought the digital FBN was god awful. (Weak on one side...the vinyl was not).
     
    cement_head and marblesmike like this.
  6. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident

    I have a $1000+ vinyl setup and a $300 DAC the Rush downloads beat the 2112 and ST vinyl. Any issues that you had with the digital you should have had with the vinyl since they were the same source. My guess is you prefer your analog setup over your digital setup. I tend to feel mine are on an even plain.
     
  7. Majestyk

    Majestyk Rush Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    I rarely listen to my analog system. I digitize everything and play it back on my digital system. If your ears can't perceive a difference between the Rush digitalis and vinyl's then something is very wrong. Because I (as well as friends of mine) hear a dramatic difference. IE: The mastering is not the same.
     
    marblesmike likes this.
  8. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident

    You are incorrect. Sean Magee mastered the new reissues to 24/192 then cut the vinyl from these files. Those same 24/192 files were then put up for sale on all of the hi res download sites. You may not be listening to the 2015 remastered digital files.

    Also I didn't say I can't perceive a difference, as a matter of fact quite the opposite my ears preferred the 2015 hi res Rush downloads over the 2015 reissued vinyl.
     
  9. ElevatorSkyMovie

    ElevatorSkyMovie Senior Member

    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Guys, please. This is a Rush thread, not a Yes thread. No arguing. :cool: Let's agree that both the vinyl and hi-res sound great.
     
    Joe McKee, MikeInFla and marblesmike like this.
  10. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Any time a vinyl lacquer is cut a new master is essentially created. Maybe some people prefer the mastering choices the limitations of vinyl force the engineer to make?
     
  11. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident

    We are talking semantics here. To my knowledge the only thing done to the new 24/192 master to cut it to vinyl was roll off the highs to protect the cutting head. If there was anymore done to them it was very, very minor.

    To me it just sounds like he prefers the "colorization" that his vinyl setup adds to the sound of these new reissues or he prefers the colorization that the Benchmark D/A adds to the sound (the D/A used to convert the digital files to cut to vinyl) and the rest of the chain used in the cutting process. There is nothing wrong with that but it really isn't a different mastering.
     
    UncleHalsey likes this.
  12. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    See, this must be all down to semantics, because I see different processing chain and/or D/A A/D and to me that means it will sound different, so different master.
     
    Plan9 likes this.
  13. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident

    I don't consider cutting an already mastered album to vinyl another master.

    In this case Sean did all the mastering choices on the 24/192 file so all EQ, compression, limiting etc has been done. The only thing done to these for cutting is what has to be done because of the limitations of the vinyl format. That to me is not mastering that is just preparing it for physical release.
     
    Warren Hawk and fuhrsy31 like this.
  14. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Have you listened to the new 2015 Rush downloads? Ripping your vinyl to digital is not the same. Are you considering the fact that the 2015 Rush Vinyl is sourced from the digital files?

    If I take a hires pcm file and convert to dsd, is it going to sound better as a SACD?

    That is great you like your turntable, but saying it will trump ANY digital setup is naïve on many levels, mainly because it is so subjective, and you sure don't make your point in this case using the 2015 digital Rush releases as your proof.
     
    Mij Retrac likes this.
  15. Majestyk

    Majestyk Rush Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    Then something is very wrong. FBN sounds radically different between the two. The digital download sounds like crap with the balance being off. I'm not the only one who has complained about that. The 2112 download is my least favourite version yet the vinyl is my GOTO, beating the original vinyl's. How can that be? Caress of Steel is the only one that sounded the same to me, between the two. I haven't heard any of the downloads past 2112...I should have mentioned that sooner. I'll get a friend of mine to send me Xanadu from the download he bought. I have the vinyl, so I'll compare. I won't bother with Hemispheres of PW since I didn't find the vinyl's of these two all that specular...Just my opinion.

    I agree with this, by the way. But the sad reality is. when the master on vinyl and digital differ, vinyl usually sounds better and 'flatter'. Especially when compared to 16/44 CD's. As for 24/96+ downloads, they should sound better than vinyl. I was listening to Kate Bush 50 Words For Snow the other day and that sounds better than vinyl...perhaps because the treble is somewhat lacking in the recording and the vinyl adds another layer of warmth.
     
  16. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    So to be clear, you're comparing the HD files with needledrop files of your own?
     
  17. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I think it varies but honestly, and maybe I just like the coloration of my setup, I almost always prefer the vinyl mastering over any digital version, although of course there are some exceptions.
     
  18. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    You are the only person on this forum that thinks the 2015 download FBN sounds like crap. It sounds excellent. The bluray sounds good too, but the download takes it up another level or three.
     
    Mij Retrac likes this.
  19. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident

    I've been reading this thread from the beginning and this is the first I have heard this and that is not my experience at all. Again, are you sure that you have the 2015 hi res downloads? I have a friend that isn't on this forum that is a Rush fanatic and I had him listen to the 24/192 version of FBN and he said it was the best he has ever heard it sound.
     
  20. Majestyk

    Majestyk Rush Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-reissues-thread.399367/page-15#post-11777498

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-reissues-thread.399367/page-14#post-11776236

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-reissues-thread.399367/page-18#post-11789720

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-reissues-thread.399367/page-23#post-11827550
     
  21. Majestyk

    Majestyk Rush Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    Ok, I did some more in-depth comparing between FBN 2015 Vinyl (on flac) vs the Digital Download. One thing I kind of missed before... The vinyl is actually off center too but only VERY slightly and not enough to distract, even on headphones. (Unless you compare it with the Original Gilbert Kong vinyl :) ) Anyway, I compared the wave-forms of the 2015 Vinyl vs Digital, on Audacity, and surprisingly they weren't that different. My guess is the vinyl (perhaps due to the equipment in part) has a slightly wider soundstage, which helps fill in the 'void' a bit. Balance aside, the vinyl does have a little more 'UMPH' to it...ok, could be equipment.

    Oh, and it should be mentioned that the vinyl setup is dead center with the balance.

    Bytor And the Snow Dog 2015 Digital waveform:
    (Left on the top)

    [​IMG]

    Bytor And the Snow Dog 2015 Vinyl waveform:

    [​IMG]

    Looking at these side by side for the first time, it looks to me like the vinyl is a tad more uniform. (Too much output on the right channel of the digital, perhaps???)

    Ok, so here is where things get interesting. I listened to 2112 Vinyl (on flac) vs the Digital. And I'm just not experiencing joy with the digital, like before . Now I already just admitted that the FBN vinyl vs digital aren't radically different and Caress of Steel vinyl vs digital are virtually the same (COS was a fantastic mastering job, btw). But 2112? I'm hearing something different. There just seems to be a lack of 'output' from the digital version and turning up the volume doesn't seem to compensate. It just seems very lifeless to me.

    Now check out the 2112 wave form difference:

    Passage To Bangkok 2015 Digital waveform:

    [​IMG]

    Passage To Bangkok 2015 Vinyl waveform:

    [​IMG]

    And yes, the magnification is identical on both. So FBN looks similar, COS (which I didn't post) looks similar. So why is 2112 so different? The waveform essentially looks like it sounds... Weak.

    Anyway, going back to Fly By Night... Decide for yourself. I have included 1 minute clips from The 2015 Vinyl, the 2015 Digital and the 1975 Glibert Kong Vinyl. On my speakers, I don't hear a huge difference between the 2015's...But my speakers aren't that great. It's my headphones where I hear the difference.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e4a1nf4cg33uhs9/Bytor.rar?dl=0
    (If you get a popup box wanting you to join, just click the X at the top of it)

    Password: FBN
    (All caps)
     
  22. Plan9

    Plan9 Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    Well, that can be the very definition of mastering in many cases. ;)
     
    marblesmike and Nick Scott like this.
  23. Plan9

    Plan9 Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    It looks like the absolute phase on your vinyl setup could be inverted (inverted polarity). It's difficult to say with just a waveform, but it could partly explain why you always prefer vinyl.
     
    Mij Retrac and Steve Martin like this.
  24. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident

    Technically speaking maybe but I don't consider it to be that especially if that is the only reason the changes are being done.
     
  25. ad180

    ad180 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Just curious, where did you buy your download?
     
    Mij Retrac likes this.

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