Rush - new 2015 vinyl and hi-res reissues thread. (Part 2)

And you know this for a fact?

The problem I have with all this speculation is that there appears to be some sort of audible distortion (I don't dispute what people say they are hearing...I don't have the files) but from that it seems to have been concluded that the file in question has been digitally watermarked.

I agree with some of the other posters questioning why Uni would go to the trouble since there is no DRM on the files. It seems to be a completely pointless excercise.

I would personally be more inclined to buy into the idea that there was some sort of problem in the mastering rather than a digital watermark.

 

Sorry, what's your point? I don't know about you, but I personally don't like unnecessary and intentional defects added to expensive products I purchase.

 

Well it's simple. I used that watermark blog post as a reference and did what they said - compared it to an original mastering that couldn't possibly have the watermark. I also read the description of the watermark, listened to the raw watermark itself, and found it matched what I was hearing.

Considering this is a UMG release, and UMG has been proven guilty doing this SEVERAL TIMES to other releases, I don't see why this is such a shock really.

(Now if the vinyl version ALSO has this effect, then I'd be more inclined to believe it's just a mastering defect since I think there is enough evidence to support the idea that the vinyl WOULDN'T have a watermark. We'll have to wait and see.)

 

Your sarcasm detector needs a tune up.

 

Quite a minor anomaly. But once you know it....

 

I know it was sarcasm. I just thought it tried to exaggerate a point I wasn't making.

 

Exactly. If this was a low quality MP3, then this kind of anomaly would be expected - but this is an ostensibly audiophile-grade and expensive download.

Just to be clear - I don't mind defects in the master tape showing up, or other problems/corrections/differences, if they are TECHNICAL issues. The fact that the AF Counterparts has extended endings on some songs doesn't bother me - it's not like Kevin Gray re-edited the songs that way, he just did what he could with the masters he received that happened to have these endings. Likewise, the reason why Steven Wilson sped up certain parts of "Thick as a Brick" was because the original mastering had played the tape too slow - i.e. a technical issue.

It's also the same reason I don't mind distortions in needle drops - because that kind of noise is expected due to the technical limitations of vinyl.

What I can't abide by are defects being intentionally introduced for non-technical reasons.

 

I haven't listened to the hi-res PoW in a while, but it's disheartening to see the comments about the watermarking. I guess this solidifies the fact that I won't purchase any more of the hi-res Mercury albums. I'll have to listen again and see if I can live with it, and if not, I'll just stick with the Atomic.

 

If I understand correctly, each vendor and streaming services gets uniquely watermarked files, so that UMG can track which route pirated files go through most often before hitting the web. But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, because the files are being bought legitimately before being pirated, so the vendors/services aren't the ones doing anything wrong. I don't know what good it would do to single out a single store or streaming service. I blame it on corporate incompetence, but here are some of the conspiracy rumors for your entertainment:

1. Universal is only adding watermarks to third parties' products, not their own, to encourage consumers to buy directly from them. (This almost makes sense, except I don't think Universal directly owns a download store or streaming service.)
2. Universal is building evidence regarding the original source of pirated tracks in order to sue the pants off of these places simply because they they are making more profit than Universal. (Again, this wouldn't be to surprising, but I don't know what legal weight that could possibly hold.)
3. Universal is purposely vandalizing their products in an effort to turn legitimate customers who want unmarked files into pirates, in order to sue them for much, much more money than they would bring in through sales profits. ("Pirates! Pirates EVERYWHERE!! Sue them all before they gnaw us to the corporate bone!")

 

Nobody is blaming Sean. But this work is going out with his name on it. And he obviously cares a great deal about giving a good product to Rush fans. So I would think he would be none too happy to find out after he delivers his final work, that the files are being watermarked in a way that audibly distorts them.

 

Good thinking on those reasons.

I would add (4) Watermark detection will be added (or already exists) on devices like car stereos, receivers, etc. in order to restrict playback of these tracks in ways that UMG doesn't approve of, and (5) Easier detection on video platforms like YouTube (fair use? too bad for you).

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think this type of watermarking has any more effect than on the sound. It's basically just a modulation effect like any other sound processing. Burning it to a dvd (or doing anything else with it for that matter) shouldn't have any different results than with unmarked material.

Given that Universal started using watermarking as a condition of their letting go of DRM, I would assume that their intentions were not of implementing it as DRM later, especially since it doesn't appear to be on every release. But given a lot of UMG's choices in the past, who knows what they are thinking.

 

I was thinking it make have an effect comparable to Cinavia on Blurays.

 

To my ears these remasters always came close to and at times surpass the originals.
I give the remaster the nod over the original for All the Worlds a Stage. To my ears, IIRC, it was by a wide margin.
I give my 2112 original a slight nod over remaster. Slight. A bit more balls - but the remaster comes out of dead silence and is sweet.

 

I've noticed pre echo on almost all the tracks similar to some lp's on the PW remaster.

 

Can you elaborate what you mean by "pre echo"? The watermark effect I'm describing is a fluttering reverb after the drum hits rather than a steady decay.

 

I believe he means this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-echo

What that article doesn't mention, though, is that pre-echo exists on older LPs and can be an analog tape artifact caused by magnetic leakage from one layer of tape to the layer above it.

 

Exactly. I hear the synth beginning of Grand Designs at a slight level a couple seconds before the track begins.

 

Just some jest, I'm staying out of this. I never trust downloads to begin with so unless its free with the LP, I don't buy them.

Too bad we could not had these topics split, LP and Digital, I'm mostly here for the LP talk.

 

I just ordered the vinyl reissue of "Counterparts" one of my favorite Rush albums. Permanent Waves is the only vinyl reissue I've skipped, as I'm more than happy with the MOFI version from a couple years ago. I will say that the artwork on the reissue kills the MOFI jacket. I'll eventually get Test For Echo, but I want to get the upcoming "Grace Under Pressure" "Hold Your Fire" and "Power Windows" vinyl reissues first.

 

Fair enough.

I second a split. No need to mix this watermark (digital-only most likely) issue with talk about the vinyls.

 

At this point you can't do that because the releases haven't been chronological and the mixed discussion has already made it one two threads with the second one at over 100 pages.

Maybe someone could start a thread about digital watermarking on digital high res releases and use the Power Windows release as a possible stepping point?

 

Until now I listended to the (watermarked) downloads with a Sennheiser HD 650. Given the "forgiving" sound signature of this headphone, the artifacts were audible, but only when I focused on them. I recently took out my significantly less forgiving SoundMagic HP 100, and the artifacts on "Mystic Rhythms" became much clearer. The opening of "Grand Designs" seems to be smeared by a nasty fluctuating noise floor too.

Yesterday I re-downloaded Power Windows from qobuz, this time as ALAC 16/44. And to my surprise: the artifacts were gone (or at least nearly unrecognizable). Don't know whether this is ALAC only or they have changed all files. I also don't know if the Hi-Res files were fixed, since I have only PeW, MP and Signals in Hi-Res.

 

I'm getting the Moving Pictures 200g LP in a few days. I never owned an original so I am looking forward to it ! Can't wait. I have the dvd audio and it sounds pretty good but I imagine this will be a lot better!

 

Interesting. I don't think ALAC would have anything to do with it (ALAC isn't all that different from FLAC), so my best guess is that they didn't't bother watermarking 16/44 downloads (my readings on the watermark suggest it is designed to persist regardless of re-sampling and data compression).

One UMG watermark case documented on HydrogenAudio suggests that certain "direct-from-UMG" Hi-Res audio files WEREN'T watermarked while counterparts (no pun intended ) on HDTRACKS etc. were. I wonder if this means that any Hi-Res files included with upcoming UMG/Rush vinyl releases will also NOT be watermarked (given that they would presumably come from UMG "directly"). I wonder if this is the reason for UMG including compressed (data- and dynamics-wise) vinyl rips instead.