Any Thiel CS3.6 owners?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BossCo, Jul 31, 2015.

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  1. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    BTW, I have heard the 3.6 in a showroom and for years I wanted them so badly. I still remember the audition piece: Tori Amos singing "Famous Blue Raincoat." Jawdropping good sound. One day I will own some Thiels. Their construction is just out of this world. I remember the "baby" Thiels they used to make, shrunken down in size. How were those?
     
    timind likes this.
  2. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Anyone?

    I cannot answer, because I only payed close attention to the "3 series". I have always considered them "my size", and they had been the "top-of-the-line" until after the CS3.6 was released. I still think the CS3.5 are REALLY good, amazing for the price they sell for now, and (in their time) the best speaker Jim Thiel thought he could design.

    Starting with the CS3.6, Thiels used complicated crossovers, lower efficiency, and developed a reputation for needing high power. But, with the right amplifiers, the newer models can sound better, and benefit from no electronic equalizer - a primary complaint about the CS3.5 and previous "3 series" models.

    Suddenly (it seemed to me at the time), after the CS3.6, a bunch of big-boys from Thiel started to appear, and I didn't keep track of them. Then, they filled in the "shrunken models", and it all turned into too many models for me to follow.

    As long as I live, and this is a sincere commitment, I will never be without at least one pair of "3-series" Thiel speakers.
     
  3. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    I wanted the CS.5 years ago, but they had stopped making them by the time I decided on them.
     
  4. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    Hardly a bunch. After the 3.6, Thiel came out with the 7.0 and then upgraded those into the 7.2, which in my opinion addressed the finicky strident aspect of Thiel speakers.
    My 7.2s have the concrete baffle that is as about inert as it gets, but great care is needed to prevent cracking.

    The CS5 was Thiel's first big speaker which came before the 3.6. Many including myself thought the 3.6 was the better speaker at the time it came out and for less money. I wanted lower bass than the 3.6 could deliver so I later went with the 7.2 speakers.
     
  5. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    OK sorry, "it seemed to me... a bunch" may have implied more than just 3 series of big speakers (and their variations): CS5, CS6 and CS7. The point was that I was such a fan of the "3 series", that I was never able to decide which of the more expensive models impressed me most. None of them ever came alive for me at CES displays. Then the 3.7 came out, and THAT was the one that impressed me most of all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  6. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I forgot about the CS6. I wonder what those are going for now. Yeah, the 3.7 is supposed to be the best Thiel. My only reservation is the low bass. At one time I was considering matching up the 3.7s with a Thiel subwoofer.
     
  7. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    Years ago I owned the 1.5 which was very well reviewed. Although my wife liked their looks, the only speaker she has ever said anything positive about, they never worked for me. I don't remember the electronics at the time but it may have been an Acurus A200 amp. Probably a match made in hell.
    Years later I got a pair of 1.6s in mint condition with the outriggers for $400. I actually asked, "this is for both speakers?" in my first contact with the seller. Unbelievable how much better they sounded than the 1.5s. As I stated earlier though, I was using a tube amp with them. And when I used a solid state amp I used a Bottlehead preamp to feed the amp. A very nicely balanced speaker to my ear.

    BTW, the Tori Amos version of Famous Blue Raincoat is my favorite version of that song. If you want to understand what L. Cohen was going for with FBR, listen to Tori sing it. So much passion in her singing and playing on it.
     
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  8. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    I have always wanted to get a pair of the 2.3 or 2.4s This after years ago hearing the 2.2 or 2 2 set up at a dealer. I took my own music and played Addicted To The Rhythm by Neneh Cherry. Maybe not the most natural sounding recording, but there is a pop sound that can hang suspended in the air when things are working. On the 2.2s that pop just floored me. Now this setup was with the speakers way out in to the room, probably 10 feet from any boundary and the sound stage was unreal.
    I still had kids in school so new Thiels were out of the question. I bought a pair of Paradigm Studio 60v.2.
    If my system wasn't in a spare bedroom, I'd have a pair of 2.4s now. Maybe I should try them in there, after all I have had Magnepan 1.6s in there and they sounded ok.
     
  9. David B.

    David B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I'll jump in here.

    I used to own a pair of Thiel CS 1.2, which was, at that time, the smallest floorstander the company made. I initially used them with a Forte 1a, which is a 50 wpc pure class A stereo power amp. The little 1.2s threw up a huge soundstage, but they were lacking in tonal weight and dynamically constrained -- as if something always had a hand around their throats.

    Things improved markedly when I changed my power amp to a Conrad-Johnson MV75a, which used a pair of 6550s per channel. This combination served me quite well (in a smaller room) for years -- until I moved to a larger room and replaced the Thiels with a mint, used pair of Snell Type As.

    My experience is thus consistent with Warren's observation that Thiels seem to wake up -- and are capable of becoming tonally and dynamically satisfying -- when driven by a suitable tube amp.

    I'll say one more thing about the Thiels: the quality of construction, and particularly the precision with which the veneers were cut and matched, was second-to-none in my experience.

    --David B.
     
  10. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    I like my 1.5s, and enjoyed the .5s that I only had for a brief audition when they were new. I believe "Thiel" has kept a couple of people in Lexington to work on older models. When Jim was still around their service was excellent.
     
  11. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I find it interesting that so many Thiel owners are recommending tube amps. I tried the CAT amps because I wanted something to match my preamp and was floored by the improvement over my Pass Alph 1.2 amps
     
  12. flvet

    flvet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jacksonville, FL
    Theil CS2.4s powered by my VAC PA100/100 sound amazing IMO. They present music that is full, rich, and detailed to whatever degree that the recording actually provides. Every system change (cables, power, preamp tubes, cartridge, ect) has been ruthlessly revealed as I have tweaked my system since the Thiels arrival. They truly need excellent system synergy to play there best. Unfortunatly, in my experience, they will reveal a system's "warts" if they exist. Each positive improvement I have experienced has made me realize that the CS2.4s have yet to be the limiting factor in my system. VAC pre and power (KT88 100 watts per channel stable down to less than 2 ohms), Audience cable web and power conditioner, Ortofon Cadenza Bronze on an Origin Live TT.

    Also, I recently had to have one of the coax tweeter midrange drivers rebuilt due to inquisitive fingers denting the tweeter dome. I shipped it to Lexington, Ky and had a phone call 24 hours after its arrival at Thiel that my rebuilt driver was ready to be shipped back to me. They even sent the solder used in thier manufacturing so things could be as original as possible after the repair. Excellent service, product support, and communication is still the norm at Thiel at this time.
    Rick
     
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  13. goldwax

    goldwax Rega | Cambridge | Denafrips | Luxman | Dynaudio

    Location:
    US of A
    I've got a line on some Thiel 3.6s--don't know what the price will be, but they are a friend's and he's said they will be severely under market.

    Problem is, I don't know that my cheap and cheerful system has the amplification (or the sources!) to make the Thiels sound good. The good news is that my living room isn't that large, only 13 x 20, and I don't need to listen at wall-shaking volumes.

    Here are my amp options, with wpc into 8 ohms, but I understand that the Thiels operate more the 2 to 3 range:

    1) Fisher 500-C (35 wpc) . Currently not working, but if I got it repaired, would it be enough for the Thiels? (There seems to be a lot of love from tube-amp owners on this thread.)
    2) Yamaha C-45 preamp with either Arcam SA200 (100 wpc) or Kenwood Basic M2A (220 wpc) power amp. I'm guessing the power amps would have enough power for this application, but would the 30-year-old consumer-grade preamp hold me back?
     
  14. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    Thiels are pretty current hungry. You could try the Fisher but I'm sure a McIntosh 100-200 WPC amp would be a better vintage choice.
     
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  15. David B.

    David B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I do not believe either of your current amplification choices will yield satisfying results with the Thiels. Thiels in general, and the 3.6s in particular, are extremely revealing and (as Tullman correctly notes above) require lots of current. Absent high quality sources and really good, robust amplification, I think you will find the Thiels to sound flat, dynamically constrained, and potentially harsh. I would buy them only if: (a) they are offered to you at a very attractive price, AND (2) you intend to build your system around them by upgrading your other components over time. If not, I think you would be much happier getting your Fisher (a classic) properly restored and building a nice little system around it with some easy-to-drive speakers. There are several threads on this forum regarding appropriate speaker matches for the 500-C.

    Best of luck to you,

    --David B.
     
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  16. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    My friend has/had some 3.6s and used a Rowland 5 amp to drive them. Originally he used a passive pre, then got a Rowland ... Consonance? Consummate? preamp. Lately, he's built his own integrated amp (he's an EE) that can drive the ~2 ohm load that the Thiels present, at about 100W or so, which he seems happy with.

    I heard the Rowland 5/passive pre system (he also had a Denon DD TT, Shure V15 cart, thru a ... can't remember the phono pre, but it used tubes as well as a FET initial stage, and is 'famous' as a giant killer phono stage). This gave the most detailed, realistic sound I have ever heard. Cranking it up (using the 'Jazz at the Pawnshop' vinyl) and going outside, one would swear there was a live band in his living room. Sounded good from inside the living room too.

    I brought over some live choir recordings (CDs) made of my daughter's then-choir and it brought me to tears. OK, it does that with MY system too but the amazing detail his system revealed was way beyond what my system could deliver. That said, I did and do enjoy my system for what it does, in some ways maybe I 'prefer' a little rounding of details etc. in the long run. His system gave an amazing 'layering' of voices in a more 3D soundstage than what mine can give.

    I'd say, IF you can eventually get a high current (probably SS) amp to drive them, go for it. They will show you what things REALLY sound like and will not be the limiting factor in your system, that's for sure. I imagine your Fisher will be OK with moderate volume in the meantime.
     
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  17. goldwax

    goldwax Rega | Cambridge | Denafrips | Luxman | Dynaudio

    Location:
    US of A
    Thanks! Yes, I already have a system that does well with the A150s and I'm sure the restored Fisher would, too. But these Thiels represent an alternate path--possibly a much LONGER and more expensive path, but possibly one that will lead to greater sonic bliss down the road. It's a bit of a conundrum.
     
  18. David B.

    David B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I'm know the Thiels to be lovely if (and only if) fed properly. If you do decide to go down this route, I strongly urge you to follow the guidance offered by Warren Jarrett. He is a system-design and set-up wizard if ever there was one, and he has many recommendations in this and other threads for used equipment that will get you where you want to go (i.e., sonic bliss) for substantially less than buying new.

    --David B.
     
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  19. goldwax

    goldwax Rega | Cambridge | Denafrips | Luxman | Dynaudio

    Location:
    US of A
    This is good info--thanks! But it seems like a Rowland 5 amp is pretty expensive, at least for my budget. Is there any way at all to provide decent amplification (power and pre) for Thiels for, say, $500 used?
     
  20. goldwax

    goldwax Rega | Cambridge | Denafrips | Luxman | Dynaudio

    Location:
    US of A
    This gives me hope for my little Fisher 500-c!
     
  21. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Considering that you have 3 VERY different kinds of amps to try with the Thiels, I would not accept anyone's advice. I would buy the Thiels, try all 3 amps, and TELL US which amp sounds best with those speakers.

    Ultimately, you may experiment more in the future with amps until you just happen to hit on a perfect combination, but dont be in a hurry.

    It took me many trys and many years for me to find my right amps for my Thiels and my ears. And that is now a set, that will never change.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  22. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I agree, no one really knows unless they try, basically, that is how I came into the CAT/Thiel combo. Dumb luck. BTW, I am expecting a new CAT Renaissance black path/46 point volume control from Ken Stevens next week. This preamp has a built in step up transformer capable of handling low output MC cartridges. The next step will be to try some MC carts.
     
  23. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I owned the CS 3.5 for a few years. I often wonder why I bought them. They (Thiel) have had a lot of audiophile hype over the years as they measure well.

    Just not a lot of musical enjoyment in my experience. I was there at the CS 5 debut in Toronto and have heard most but not all models. The whole massive bass that initially sounds impressive, but not real has stopped working for me.

    They are the opposite of what I look for, in the last 15-20 years. However, if someone else enjoys them...to each his/her own. We don't have to all like the same thing.
     
  24. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I forgot to add that I owned the original Classe Audio DR-8 power amp and DR-5 preamp with a Linn LP12 setup when I owned the Thiel CS3.5s. According to Jim Thiel, I should have added a resistor to the tweeter, if I felt that it was too hot. It definitely was. It was also in a well damped room!

    The CS 5 and CS 7.2 demos were with top end Mark Levinson electronics. I wasn't impressed. That's just me though. If that floats your boat and you buy more LPs, then right on!
     
  25. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Don, from reading your posts, I think we share a lot in common when it comes to what we listen for and what sonic qualities we choose to live with. My 3.5s did a LOT more than "measure well". I think you gave up too easily.

    I learned a lot about equipment synergy and experimenting with amp/speaker combinations when I owned the CS3.5 speakers. I tried Classe DR8 and DR9 amps but found the result unsatifying: the combination lacked in dynamics and drama, and did not control the bass (I remember well). Also borrowed a Levinson #27 and #29 -- the 27 was slighly better than any other transistor amp I ever tried with them. Hybrid tube/ss amps didn't sound any better (ARC and Melos). The Melos' bass was WAY too boomy with these speakers. ARC amps were eztremely "hot" and analytical. Finally the real tube amps I tried were much better. Thiels were just finicky

    But once I got the amps right for them they were stunning in every way. People still tell me that the CS3.5 system, in my room, did everything right and is still one of the best systems they have ever heard.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
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