Genesis's Dodo Suite - Naminanu: Intro or Outro?

Wikipedia has it correct when it has "citation needed" at the end of the mention of the Dodo Suite. It has been a while since I was last knee-deep in the minutia of Genesis lore, but my recollection is that there has never been any official mention by the band of a suite or the intention for one out of these tracks. The Complete Abacab is a nice thought, but it always sounded to me like cross-fades done after the fact.

Submarine sounds to me like an early jam that was never finished, so was not likely a contender for the album's short list. Naminanu is nice (I remember trolling record shops for the b-side on 45 before the archives finally released it on CD). It is a neat piece in the same vein as Do the Neurotic, a b-side from the Invisible Touch sessions five years later. Can we speculate on a suite that includes that and Feeding the Fire?

 

I've always preferred it this way round: indeed, 'Abacab Complete' is my go-to version of this album. Lesser SQ/rough mixes, but I like the balance, completeness and transitional feel.

 

Sorry for posting the same thing multiple times, something went wrong with my browser

 

According to another post here, Abacab Complete is not just any bootleg where the tracks are thrown together in a random order, but a straight transfer of the Farm master tape the band was giving promo copies of to the press.

So, perhaps it's not that unreasonable to assume there was a Dodo Suite, and the order on the bootleg is the "correct" order.

Also, some might be wondering why the band didn't include songs like Paperlate, You Might Recall, and Me & Virgil on the album. According to Phil in the Genesis book I have, the record company did not allow them to use those leftover songs, for whatever reason.

 

I might be wrong but I seem to remember Banks mentioning that in an interview. Naminanu the opener, Submarine the closer.

Or maybe it was just about Submarine following Lurker.

 

The funny thing about all this conjecture is that I don't believe the band has ever mentioned an original intention for a suite to end up on the album. The mighty Genesis discography written/curated by Scott McMahan (Google to find a pdf) ceased being updated around 1998, but never touches on it. The official Chapter and Verse spoken history only mentions the intent for Abacab to be concise and the only discussion as to which songs would make the album was Whodunnit bumping You Might Recall at Ahmet Ertegun's request. Tony's only mention of the Lurker riddle was as follows (per McMahan):

"As for the Lurker riddle, this is taken from the October 1997 edition of Record Collector: Tony: It's very interesting this, because we're now in 1997, and I wrote the lyric to that in '82. You may say there's been a lot of discussion about what the riddle is, but I've never actually been asked that question in an interview. Because no one asked me it all fell a bit flat! Now all these years on, I'm afraid to say really that there is no real solution. You can search for your own one if you like. It was a bit of a joke. When I was writing it I honestly didn't really have a specific idea in mind. If you can find out what the answer is, perhaps you can tell me!"

So there's that.

 

which could be just the usual trademarked Banks' humour+understatement formula and doesn't prove a thing.

What it seems to be the case just by listening to the music is that the suite's idea was scrapped soon enough (if it ever existed), because the transitions are missing.
Even what comes out from the boot's or fan's editing is sloppy and definitely not in their style of combining longer pieces.

What I do find interesting through is that you hear the same drumroll in the background (toms, I suppose) in the fadeout of Lurker and at the beginning on Submarine; while in the first one does make sense even as an embellishment, in the second one it's completely gratuitous and goes away soon. That makes me wonder if a series of rolls was not in fact intended as (part of) the transition.

 

When did exactly this suite's "rumour" started, by the way?

 

Must've been.

Feeding the Fire is also a great Genesis b-side track as well, I even have it on the Land of Confusion single.

Agreed.

That's alright mate, at least you acknowledged.

Yeah, good points.

Of course it's obvious that Lurker was supposed to follow Lurker, we're just discussing about Naminanu. Where's this interview you mentioned anyway?

There definitely were supposed to be segways.

Dunno, long before I came in...

 

I'm afraid it was only in my mind, since nobody else remembers it...

 

Oh, you might've dreamt it. *shrugs sheepishly*

 

Only found out about this "suite" when I was sharing my little altABACAB playlist with some friends a couple of days ago. My sequence (previously without Submarine, stupid since I like Submarine) is different than conventional wisdom just on account of personal preference. I like the sort of journey to and from Dodo/Lurker, and You Might Recall works well imo as a change of pace out of Naminanu.

1. Paperlate
2. Abacab
3. Me & Sarah Jane
4. Submarine
5. Dodo/Lurker
6. Naminanu
7. You Might Recall
8. Man On The Corner
9. Keep It Dark
10. No Reply At All

Related, does anyone know a good reason for why these extras aren't available by now on iTunes, whether as part of the Archives Vol. 2 box or something else?

 

Found a transcript of a radio interview to Tony Banks on The Waiting Room fanzine #59. It's Hallam Rock interview 28th September 1981.

INT: Well, on the album there is virtually every facet of Genesis reflected in the very soft ballads; the long songs and one or two which are pretty heavy, aren’t they I mean Abacab itself is and the one which opens side two, I say one track its actually two; Dodo/Lurker which is actually the longest track on the album. What's the story behind that one?

TB: Yeah, well originally we had four tracks which we joined together of which these are the first two and the other two we decided to shelve because they weren't very strong and so in a way we consider them as separate songs in fact there is a definite break point and then you are into a different kind of feel. The Dodo track, the lyrics were ones which sounded good when a person sang them rather than worrying about what they actually meant and that is true of quite a few of the tracks in a way. That is why we haven't got the lyrics written on the album because we have wanted to steer things away from the emphasis on what they mean and put it on what they sound like.

 

I get it goes Dodo>Lurker>Submarine>Naminanu

 

I could never get my head around the fact that these three songs belonged together. In my mind, Dodo/Lurker sounds good on its own, Submarine is a lovely, tranquil sort of ambient piece... Never was that big a fan of Naminanu. Some people mention them as going pop ca. 1980 and never doing anything interesting ever again... This proposed suite proves this statement wrong, and in fact Genesis did remain edgy and interesting in certain compositions throughout the eighties and into the nineties... It's just that the pop stuff proved more popular. Even in 1986 they'd play the end of Supper's Ready live and it just sounded super cool and heavy. With Genesis, I like it all, really... Love this group with all my heart. Pop, prog, whatever... Don't care. Good music is good music.

 

Anyone else have the 12" vinyl with Naminanu and the see no evil hear no evil speak no evil sleeve?

 

Interesting, thanks Alessandro... so the question is- do we know for sure that Naminanu and Submarine really were the other 2 pieces? Or maybe they really did get totally shelved.

 

I always thought, and still sort of think, that the answer to the riddle is Earth.

The rest of the piece seems to be about life, death and extinction while the Earth itself pops up in the end and, in my reading of the riddle, says 'nothing can ultimately destroy me, life and death and extinction are irrelevant to my existence as a planet.' To me the whole piece is about the 'vacuum' and how life has no value except in the value that the 'bigger fish' places on it. So if a fish tastes good, it gets eaten. If an animal looks nice, we kill it and wear it or keep it as a pet. If an animal tastes bad and looks ugly we place no value on it...but ultimately the 'bigger fish' in our case is evolution, extinction and, individually, death. Life is temporary, fragile and ultimately pointless when measured against the bigger picture - the Earth bit is an attempt to put a bit 'too much f'ing perspective' on our existence and the existence of all life on a planet that was here before our species and will be here long after too. It's an angry song, in a way, that, I feel, is one of the darkest things Genesis ever put out.

And, yes, of course, I'm a recreational smoker.

 

Considering the interview dates september 1981, none of the b-sides had already been released at that point. They held back 5 known songs from the sessions, but i don't believe they had 2 other ones that got completely shelved and never issued (making the total leftover songs up to 7), so i think that 99% the 2 songs Banks was speaking of are Naminanu and Submarine.

 

I have it!!

 

So have I.

 

Or maybe the fact that they tossed half of it proves it right?
(just joking, I like all eras)

 

Tony said there's nothing in the vaults. They were not keepers. They selected ideas and worked on them, all other ideas just got discarded even before developing. The few existing outtakes have been published so far.

 

Or maybe there's no intended meaning to the riddle, as the above interview might suggest.
Therefore: anything it means to you is totally right

 

I was reading to some old magazines and newspapers cutting, and i found this article from an italian magazine called 'Ciao 2001' dated october 1981:









This last image is the most interesting part.
I don't have much time to translate it all, but the writer says Phil sent him an advance cassette tape well ahead of the release of the Abacab album, along with a handwritten paper saying ''Among these tracks there's the new album. Is it better than Duke?''
About Dodo, the writer says the song on his cassette is twice longer, with two codas: the first one began with a sweet organ painting a soft melody for a couple of minutes, then, mixed on the organ there was a rhytmic and happy chant made of sounds, not words, which goes on for another couple of minutes.
Phil explained that they took those 2 codas off because they were too close to their old compositions (Trespass), expecially the organ.
The writer also says on the tape there are 2 further songs that didn't end up on the finished album: the first one (3 min) features a fast and happy synth rhythm and the other one which is longer with many mood changes and with a central break of organ and vocals.

Very interesting, isn't it?